Treeburst155

Very interesting, Watchman. There's a 50% chance your molotov masters were indeed fanatics then. I'd bet the molotov success was not related to their fanaticism though. You got lucky! The fact that they remained unpanicked, and able to throw the molotovs may have been related to fanatacism, if they were taking enough fire. Treeburst155 out.

In no case, have I been able to get a bad strike if the first spotting round goes out. This is true if I immediately break LOS and never restore it. This is true if there is a turn break between the spotting rounds and the first full salvo. It's all tied to that single critical moment when the first spotting round is fired. Turn breaks are not involved. You proved that with "case1a". As for the "true issue", to me the only issue is understanding the behaviour so I don't drop explosives on my own guys. Treeburst155 out. [ March 29, 2004, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Theory on Redwolf's bad strike with two spotting rounds (so far unreproducable): LOS is blocked AFTER the "critical moment" as currently defined; but before the first spotting round actually impacts. LOS then clears before the second spotting round, allowing it to fire. If this is true, the critical moment may be tied to spotting round impact, not firing. We're talking a span of about 3-12 seconds here, in most cases. Looking for impacts is much more difficult than checking for ammo reduction due to firing. I hope you cannot reproduce this, Redwolf. Treeburst155 out.

Redwolf, Considering the invisible smoke/dust issue, which only happens when a round hits within a very small window of time at the end of the movie, I would not be surprised if there is some fluke involving exact timing near the end of a movie to disprove my behaviour definition. However, if it is very difficult to reproduce, I don't think it will be very common in-game. If you can reproduce it, I'd love to see it; but is it really worth the time? Treeburst155 out.

Some things I think are true, but wording in the manual SEEMS to suggest differently: 1) Any ongoing ACCURATE strike can accurately be adjusted with a green-line adjustment, EVERY time. 2) All blue-line (in LOS) fire missions will be accurate regardless of experience level as long as LOS is not blocked at the critical moment. The exception to this is ROCKET artillery. Rockets behave in a different way than other arty assets. They have no spotting rounds. This could mean they have no "critical moment". It could mean that ALL rocket strikes are blind except for prep-bombardments, and maybe TRPs. Rockets are entirely outside the topic of this thread. They are THAT different in how they operate. If I saw enough rockets, I'd study the behaviour. Maybe I will anyway. Joachim, what can you tell us about rockets? Back to "normal" arty, adjusting BLIND strikes is a crap-shoot. Limited testing seems to support the manual, as quoted above by Martyr. Adjustments tend to move strikes closer to the target. I've yet to get an adjustment to an off-target blind strike to hit on-target however. Treeburst155 out. [ March 29, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Redwolf, I have not looked at all your savegames; but I suspect the bad strikes with the one spotting round are strikes in which the first spotting round did not fire due to blocked LOS. This LOS subsequently cleared in time for the second spotting round to fire. Because the first spotting round is the "critical moment", the strike is bad even though the second spotting round was fired. This is the case with your "case1a". If you can show a bad strike with TWO spotting rounds, you have disproved my latest definition of arty behaviour. Treeburst155 out.

John, Once the first spotting round has been fired (ammo count reduced by one), the strike will be good. The spotter can break LOS. Adjusting an accurate strike I have not studied; but I'd bet it works fine as long as the spotter has LOS to the new, nearby point. Joachim, Thanks for the countdown info! Critical moments for initial spotting rounds are probably either 60 seconds or 30 seconds for all spotters. This makes things easier. On our game, crunch the turn when you can. No hurry. Our game would make a good CPU/Memory/Motherboard performance benchmark. In fact, I just might keep a few files for that. Martyr, Your quote from the manual is in reference to adjusting OFF-TARGET strikes. The only way to have an off-target strike is to target blind intentionally, or to have spotter LOS blocked at the critical moment. I've yet to see an off-target strike become accurate through adjustment. Then again, I don't do blind strikes. Treeburst155 out.

I played the Allies. The armor matchup is quite interesting. The Germans have a little surprise in their forces that I didn't know about until the end. I felt the sting though. I just couldn't figure out how I was getting stung. Interesting is that the patch has changed available forces for this date and region. I played with creating a larger version of the scenario with the same unit mix. I couldn't do it in 1.01, but it's possible in 1.00. Congratulations, Berli, on a great scenario! Treeburst155 out.

CMBO is more "beer & pretzels" in nature. It's a great game. The existence of CMBB and CMAK don't change that fact. Treeburst155 out.

Watchman, a hit doesn't mean a kill. Did the Panther die? Also, how do you know the guys using the molotovs are fanatics? It is very difficult to determine who has gone fanatic. Treeburst155 out.

I have a live, in-game, stand-and-fight armor confrontation going here in a PBEM!! A platoon of T-34s (85mm) have decided the Tiger at 920 meters is not a big enough threat to warrant backing off. All units involved are on roads, with the Tiger on significantly higher ground. My boys are fighting that big ugly cat!! One of them already repelled an 88mm hit to the turret. Undaunted, he holds fast, working frantically with his comrades to put Russian steel into the beast. Win or lose, I'm proud of this T-34 platoon. I'd be even more proud if they could hit the thing in the next minute or so. The Tiger is likely to start hitting with precision very soon. Treeburst155 out.

Very interesting link, Jeff. I didn't know the phenomenon existed. It's just more evidence of....shouldn't this have been posted to the General Forum? Shame on you, Jeff! Treeburst155 out.

"Pz IV with kill chance none - cowered never" This would seem to go against the self-preservation argument being put forward here to defend current Soviet behaviour. Did German tankers not exhibit the same level of desire for self-preservation? I think herein lies the major complaint. There is an apparent double standard. I wonder how the Pz IV would react in the same test if the IS-2s were changed to IS-1s? Did the Pz IV properly identify the IS-2s? Treeburst155 out.

I was going to spend some time today reproducing what I consider to be undesireable Soviet armor behaviour. Then it occurred to me, what I consider undesireable is probably perfectly fine behaviour to BFC and their testers. It's all a matter of opinion. I don't think I can show bad enough Soviet armor behaviour to change anyone's opinion on that behaviour. If true, the current behaviour must be accepted, just like I must accept the existence of politcal views that differ from my own. Treeburst155 out.

Actually, Andreas, the incident that triggered this topic was that I can't get my IS-1 to die. He keeps backing away from the fight. I've always accepted Soviet armor behaviour with the rationalization that the slow ROF of the 122mm and the easily penetrable armor of T-34s justified the behaviour. Then I finally found myself with a nice, beefy IS-1 that did not have a slow ROF. I thought to myself, "Now this baby will fight!!", but it doesn't. BFC have made several design decisions that I disagree with. I just started this thread to see if I'd found another one. My ranting is confined only to the Molotovs, which I REALLY don't like. Having said that, I've enjoyed CM for several years, with no end in sight. These design decisions I disagree with can't be that major if this is true. It's a good thing I can remove molotovs in the editor though. Treeburst155 out.

Yeah, I don't watch for actual spotting rounds either. They're easy to miss when lots is going on anyway. Until the latest definition is disproven, here is the best procedure for minimizing the damage of "observed" blind strikes. Note that we cannot prevent them completely with the new definition of behaviour. 1) Know the critical moment for each of your spotters. This may be very simple. 30 and 60 seconds could be the only two possibilities. 2) With the spotter selected during the movie, watch for the critical moment. If a spotting round does not go out (ammo count reduced by one) at the critical moment, cancel the strike at the first opportunity. 3) If the FIRST spotting round does go out, your strike is good. You can even break LOS voluntarily at this point by moving the spotter. His job is done. Treeburst155 out.

The thing is, the Russians will cower even when they have a fair chance of resisting penetration, a fair chance of penetrating themselves, and even when they outnumber the Germans. There comes a time when men must be men. Nobody lives forever. Treeburst155 out.

US 155mm Regular spotters will fire two spotting rounds at most. One will fire at 60 seconds, the other at 30 seconds IF there is LOS at these times. If LOS is blocked before the second spotting round, it will not be fired. However, the strike will still be on target. There is only one critical moment, and it is associated with the first spotting round. In the case of Redwolf's "case1a" saved game, LOS was blocked at the critical moment. This prevented the first spotting round from firing at 60 seconds, and guaranteed a blind strike. LOS cleared soon afterward, before the second spotting round was due to be fired. The second spotting round fired! The strike was already spoiled however. To reiterate, in the case of arty that fires two spotting rounds, either one could be prevented from firing due to LOS obstruction to the target point. However, the only one that is important is the first one. If it is blocked, the strike will be bad, even if LOS is cleared very soon after, allowing the second spotting round to be fired. So, you can have good strikes with only one spotting round (the first one), and bad strikes with zero or one spotting round (the second one). A couple things I noticed that could cause testing errors: 1) Not all visible dust blocks LOS. Very small, new clouds do not do so. 2) Some off-target strikes can be fairly close. It is clear that they are off-target; but you need to zoom in a bit to really tell. 3) When testing, don't forget about the invisible smoke/dust that blocks LOS if rounds hit very late in the previous turn. 4) Don't forget that blind strikes CAN be on-target occasionally; but will PROBABLY not have a spotting round (the second one could fire). It is possible to have a blind strike look almost exactly like a good strike if the second spotting round fires, and the strike just happens to be on target. I believe I can now explain all of Redwolf's results. He disproved my previous definition of the behaviour; but I think this one still stands: Every spotter has a consistent point in time, with respect to the 60 second countdown, at which he must have LOS to the target point if his strike is to be on-target. If he does not have LOS at this point in time, the strike will be a blind strike, regardless of LOS status before or after this critical point in time. If he does have LOS at the critical moment, the strike will be good regardless of LOS status before or after this critical moment, as long as he had LOS at the time of targetting too. This does not apply to spotters that come under fire and become pinned, etc.. I'm talking only about what should be clean, simple, observed strikes. "Critical Moments" for a few spotters, all with radios, are listed below. Much more research needs to be done in this area. It could be real easy, or there could be lots of different critical moments. Experience may play a part, or it may not. US Regular 81mm - 30 seconds US Regular 105mm - 30 seconds US Regular 155mm - 60 seconds German Veteran 150mm - 60 seconds Once again I think the behaviour is fully understood. Only this time, it is much more difficult to deal with. Please, somebody refute my latest definition! It would be so much better if the bad strike could be consistently caught in the orders phase, before the damage is done. Treeburst155 out.

See post below. [ March 28, 2004, 04:40 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Working with Regular 81mm mortars, the behaviour is very similar to the big stuff tested above except the critcal time is at the 30 second mark. This is when the first spotting round will be fired IF LOS is clear at that moment. When I had clear LOS at 60 seconds; but blocked it before the 30 second mark, the strike was off-target with no spotting rounds. Here is what I believe at this point, with the understanding that there are anomalies: 1) The blind/not-blind decision is made, based on spotter LOS, at a set point in time. 2) This point in time corresponds to the firing of the first spotting round. If LOS = True, fire spotting round, strike = accurate. If LOS = False, no spotting round, strike = blind 3) This critical moment may be different for each spotter type and/or experience level. However, it is consistent within type/experience. For example, a regular US 81mm spotter will ALWAYS have the critical moment at the 30 second point of the countdown. 4) The LOS state before or after this critical moment is of no consequence as long as you had LOS when you did the targetting, and at the critical moment. In most of the more common cases the critical moment will occur in the same turn as the first round lands. This is what led me to believe that LOS at the beginning of the turn of impact was the key. My new definition: Every spotter has a consistent point in time, with respect to the 60 second countdown, at which he must have LOS to the target point if his strike is to be on-target. If he does not have LOS at this point in time, the strike will be a blind strike, regardless of LOS status before or after this critical point in time. If he does have LOS at the critical moment, the strike will be good regardless of LOS status before or after this critical moment, as long as he had LOS at the time of targetting too. Things to be done: 1) Determine the critical moment for all common spotter types at all the different experience levels. 2) Try to make sense of what appear to be blind strikes that have spotting rounds. Do these strikes fit my latest definition except for the presence of the spotting rounds? 3) Try to disprove my latest behaviour definition. If I am right about all this, we have no way of cancelling a strike before wasting rounds (or our own troops) because the decision point can only be reached in the movie phase when time is actually passing. At best we would see the decision point coupled with blocked LOS at the very end of a movie. This means every spotter with a fire mission must be watched throughout the movie because you never really know when the 60 second timer will start. A good general rule is to note LOS status during the orders phase of a strike that is in the countdown process, or probably very near it. This will save your rounds and troops much of the time; but not always. Well, back to work I go; because I'm not letting MY troopers get hammered by "observed" arty strikes. Never again will that happen to me, no matter what it takes! Treeburst155 out.

Working with 155mm spotters, if LOS is blocked at the point in time where the 60 second countdown begins, you get no spotting rounds. The strike will usually fall off-target. BTW, the first spotting round is fired at the same point in time as the 60 second countdown begins. It can take 5-11 seconds to impact. If there is LOS at the 60 second point, you will get spotting rounds, and the entire strike will be good, even if LOS is quickly broken and not restored! This is true even when moving to the next turn. LOS at the 60 second point means an accurate strike, at least with the 155mm. I'm blocking LOS fairly precisely by having the spotter move behind a burning building. I'm going to work with this type of LOS block awhile longer. It could be that smoke and dust affect spotter LOS differently than moving behind a burning building, but we still may learn something from this series of tests. I'm thinking the key moment in time, where LOS must be good, is the beginning of the 60 second countdown. This appears to be the case so far. I need to do these tests with smaller stuff now. If the key moment in time (if there even is a key moment)is indeed the 60 second counter, we have a problem because we never really know when that countdown is going to begin. We do know that it can only happen during a movie when we can't do anything about it. I'm moving on to small stuff now. Treeburst155 out.

Accuracy of the full strike (not spotting rounds) is NOT 100% predictable by the state of LOS at the beginning of the turn of firing. Your "case1a" proves this, thereby disproving my theory. I suspect the strikes that do not fit the model, such as your "Case1a" shows, will all be strikes with arty greater than 105mm. If we assume that the ONLY difference between the big stuff and the small stuff is time between salvos, then the good strike/bad strike trigger in NOT the state of LOS at the beginning of the turn of firing. Then again, maybe I am misidentifying the "turn of firing" for the big stuff. Those big rounds are in the air for quite some time. Hmmmm... Treeburt155 out.

Dang it, Redwolf! You just disproved my bug definition! I ran your "Case_1a". The LOS clears 10 seconds before the end of the turn, but the strike still goes haywire, albeit with a spotting round. My latest theory is that larger arty does not behave the same as 105mm and smaller. I think this because of the spotting rounds that are fired even when the strikes go bad. So, it's back to the drawing board. I still cannot protect my men from these haywire "observed" strikes in every case. There just has to be a way to pin this down. Hopefully it's not some random thing that happens. Treeburst155 out.

I take it then, Jason, that you disapprove of this aspect of Russian TacAI behaviour? So do I. I wanna see what happens when eight IS-1s stand and fight against four Panthers. Unfortunately, they won't stand and fight. Maybe if I surround the IS-1s with rough.... Treeburst155 out.

Spotting rounds is another investigation. I've seen spotting rounds with the 155mm that preceded (by 50 seconds) a bad strike. I think the best way to keep from being bit by the issue is to make sure that LOS is clear on the turn the very first round is due to be fired, whether that is a spotting round or not. Treeburst155 out.