CavScout

"Deutschland über den Verbündeten" anyone?

I do find it ironic that those drooling over the German books on maneuver warfare attack the US military for the Gulf War. How they couldn't identify the "real" weakness of the Iraqi army. Funny, the German Army found itself in a similar position in France with the French army collapsing faster than thought and like the Republican Guard, the British were able to escape. I ask, who's failure to "identify" cost more inthe end?

I know, my point was to the definition of "manever warfare" being anything causing "disruption or dislocation".

Nothing like building a "no lose" definition... How can anyone be for "attrition warfare"...

So "maneuver warfare" has become whatever forces "disruption, dislocation"?

I guess that makes Picket's Charge in the ACW a "maneuverist" action...

If you don't use a hub (or other device) between the computers you'll need a cross-over cable.

No, my point was Lee tried to turn the flank by going after LRT. It happened to fail. Why is that flank maneuver "attrtion warfare" but a similar but sucessful flank turn in the Gulf is considered "maneuver warfare"? It seems that some define "maneuver warfare" as anything that works. If it didn't work it must have been "attrition warfare". Cav ------------------ "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club

I agree.

Picket's Charge was a result of Lee being unable to turn the flank. If Lee had routed Chamberlin's men, I doubt Picket would have been asked to do what he did.

I agree with Heneri. Being the best hole digger (tactics) in world does you no good without the shovel (unit capabilities). However, a guy who knows what a shovel does and has it can simply dig the hole.

The "first" thing they did was go after the air force and AA sites. Once they were free in the air they started attriting the Iraq military, from top to bottom. How one can claim this as "maneuver warefare" is beyond me. That's like claiming the naval bombardment (air war)of a beach prior to a beach landing (ground war) is somehow maneuver.

So you describe "Maneuver Warfare" as having less rigid orders?

Lee at Gettysburg? What were the attacks on Little Round Top for?

While the results may have been the "goal" of "Maneuver Warfare", it is difficult to argue that it was "Maneuver Warfare" that got you there. Even so-called "attrition" warefare aims for the same results. The Allied Forces applied superior firepower against the enemy. In my mind, this is more applicable to "attrition warefare". Some point out the "left hook" by allies as some great indicator of "Maneuver Warfare" but "turning the flank" has always been a goal in combat.

I think having the bases flash (or something) for units receiving fire would be helpful.

While he probably would have been more effective if he did that, if he could, but why would you call this "maneuver"? Running an arguably superior armor force over Saudis and their allied American para-troppers doesn't smack of anything special to be called "maneuver".

If correcting a misperception of so-called German "perfection" is insulting, so be it.

I think you have hit upon a great point. Many of what is cited as examples of "maneuver" have been against enemies of questionable quality.

Simple really. Avoid playing Slapdragon and his AAA battalions! Seriously, good post Henri.

What personal attacks? I said, "To hear people talk you might never know that most of the "great" German triumphs turned out to be hollow performaces. As Bolger said, 'They looked good losing, though, didn't they?'" If calling the German victory in France a "hollow performace" is a personal attack....

And Germany would have no way to beat the UK. At best you can argue for a stalemate. Actually, the German path to victory was predicated on attrition warfare. They thought with U-boats they could win by sinking enough ships.

Personal attack? I'd suggest some reading glasses as there is no personal attack anywhere in that post. If you consider disagreement an attack then so be it. When you do get those glasses, go to page one and see that I posted there. Also look above your post and see another post before you did. You give yourself too much credit. Cav ------------------ "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 02-01-2001).]

Did I say that? No. But your unabashed worship of all things German has blinded you again. The why was the Sherman designed to be a "break out" tank and not an infantry support tank? The British certainly had infantry support tanks but they had their cruiser tanks as well. Are you arguing that the Pz IV was meant to kill other tanks in its initial design? The Pz III was to kill tanks, the Pz IV wasn't. Usage? Of course, Rommel was great and unbeatablem right? When he lost it really wasn't his fault. I guess you can blame the supply situation when Rommel ignored German High Command and launched out for the Suez only to be defeated. Cav ------------------ "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club

To hear people talk you might never know that most of the "great" German triumphs turned out to be hollow performaces. As Bolger said, "They looked good losing, though, didn't they?" Perhaps, but they didn't. Maneuver didn't cause the British to capitulate. Perhaps attrition by destroying Dunkirk would have. Both are "what ifs". Did the Germans win by some great new doctrine or by the poor caliber of its opponents, France, Holland, Denmark and Belgium? Cav ------------------ "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club