Lars

Bumping this now that the game is out and modified to reflect.

Was the topic at hand. btw, no need to re-design the Jap carriers. Just don't spread them and the rest of the fleet all over the Pacific in an ill-conceived plan. "You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread" - Heinz Guderian [ May 22, 2006, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Lars ]

Or maybe he was just an ideologue, given that he followed the same plan that was a loser in the last war. Wouldn't have been the first.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

But what are you going to have to do with those supplies that do make it? Consider the other side of the war. RESULTS OF THE AMERICAN PACIFIC SUBMARINE CAMPAIGN OF WORLD WAR II First, the naval losses. The US had warships as a priority target for the first part of the war. There's what 288 total subs serving did to the IJN. Keep in mind that the actual effective number of subs out there at any one time was much, much lower, and most of those subs didn't show up till later when merchants were priority, so very few subs accounted for a lot of warships. Then there's this little goodie. Salient point bolded. Actually, I could have bolded the whole thing. Your yards are full of dinged up ships, you need to replace losses, you can't build anything to hit back, and it just keeps snowballing…

The Bismarck, two CA's, and two AF hammer Trondheim. Stormy seas in the south prevent the RN from doing much about it. The plucky Brits holding out in the city give them the finger. USSR gets Inf Weapons 2 and Intel 1.

Not really. Stalin went catatonic when the Germans surprised him. If he had read in the papers that four countries went up in smoke the week before I'm sure he'd be downright suicidal.

Hmm, with just a little map work a guy could come up with a very interesting Civil War II grand campaign. Don't even have to mod the units. Create the split however you like, sway some states with diplo to join up, perhaps add a few foreign interlopers…

He got the Braille version.

You forgot Interior Lines for the Axis.

dbl [ May 22, 2006, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Lars ]

Go back to the page I linked and look at the top where it shows losses by pre-war percentage. Losses in pre-war ships - 161 (48%) Sure you can build more, and they did. But they don't do you much coming down the ways in '44-'45 if you're kaput in '42, which was a very bad year for the RN.

What the heck is an Italian AF doing in Norway? The mind boggles. Yeah, the Paratrooper was rather depleted after you dropped him down a mountain ravine. Wouldn't go to their reunions if I were you. Elsewhere, Romanians join up, UK raids Antwerp, and a Italian sub pops up next to Gilbralter, trading shots with the BB.

Heh, have you read about the Argentinian one? Surprised the Brits didn't pick up all the cussing on their sonars.

The Case For Mines Think I'll have to sit down and re-read it now that the game is actually out. But now, I have to go make the wife happy. With patio furniture, ya bunch of pervs...

Stalin hits the Trondheim Corps with one AF. Hits a CA with another AF. UK hits Antwerp port. Mostly a build up turn. Big things are brewing! USSR gets Rockets 1.

Got the numbers from here. Best I could do online on short notice. British & Commonwealth Navy Losses Look all the way down at the bottom. Biggest killer was aircraft - 77, followed by other ships - 61, then subs - 56, and finally mines - 54. We'll ignore accidents (doh!) and shore batteries. But again, note the biggest killer of carriers. Subs. And if you strip out the UK's own sub losses the stats change dramatically towards the submarines favor. It's also important to keep in mind the German's doctrine was pretty much to avoid warships, go for the merchants. They'd take the freebies, and did try to draw the Brits onto sub screens a few times, but in general, they went for the freighters. Now try to open up your mind to the possibilities of going for the warships, and leaving the easy meat to later. The Brits would have been absolutely screaming for escorts. Might not even have had enough to do convoy protection at all. btw, I pushed hard for the inclusion of mines. We're missing 20-25% of the ship killers and they really buggered up the merchant shipping. Sadly, it didn't make it in the game. Go read that thread.

Yugo goes, Russians upset. 83% war readiness. Seems Stalin is playing diplo games in Spain again too. USSR gets Industrial 3.

With 7 UK carriers lost to subs (the entire pre-war strength) you could say they pretty much did sweep the seas clean. 56 warships down when you're not even trying is nothing to sneer at. Of course, those dastardly Brits did build more.

And you really need to crack a history book once in awhile. "The submarine will prevent any fleet remaining at sea continuously....it is astounding to me how the very best amongst us fail to recognise the vast impending revolution in naval warfare and naval strategy that the submarine will accomplish." - Admiral John "Jackie" Fischer, 1904. "As the motor vehicle has driven the horse from the road, so will the submarine drive the battleships from the sea." - Admiral Sir Percy Scott, 1914. Seems some of the Brits were ahead of you in their thinking, even a hundred years ago.

Well, ok, just this once...

Do I get to insert a blonde joke here?

But it doesn't make it more historical. It just restricts you to Donitz's strategy. I'd like to keep the option of going after the RN instead.

You overestimate the speed of the warships. They didn't spend all their time zipping around at 30 knots, only when alerted. Which a sub would take care not to do until it's too late for the victim. Type VII submerged speed - 8 knots. Tribal class DD - 13 knots cruise. Submariners call surface ships "targets" for a reason. Interesting to note that four of those original twleve DD's were torpedoed, albeit some by other destroyers. But again, German doctrine never made them a priority target.

On what historical basis? Torpedoes were devasting weapons, which is why even surface ships carried them.