Jadayne

*sniff* ah the memories... There was a post about a month back where everyone listed their favorites. I just can't believe that the dusty old copies I have in my basement back home might be some of the last copies left in the world. I gotta call my mom and have her shrinkwrap them all for posterity. ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

whoa, I'm not asking for open coding or anything. I'm not even asking that the AHISTORICAL button be put in the game. As I said before, it was just a stream of thought. I'm aware that my argument may seem off topic, but I think what I've done is simply expand the topic into something which is, admitedly, much bigger than the original post. A player's desire to do something outside the current restrictions of the game would be solved if there was an option to remove those restrictions. Yes, the end result is much broader than just including one more quality level in QuickBattles. But quality levels would also be addressed using this solution. And, again, the only reason this came to my mind is that I remember BTS saying that they were planning on doing something similar anyway -so this would simply be an extension of what they're already coding. ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires) [This message has been edited by Jadayne (edited 10-19-2000).]

whoops, when I said all troops have radios, I was referring specifically to bailed crews hiding in the bushes in behind enemy lines miraculously radioing troop types and positions to your entire force. Also, in the NZ/PBEM thread, they want to ban AT recon. What's gamey about AT team recon? Why would you recon with AT teams anyway? ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

this is a slightly edited down version of my post on "varied troop qualities" - Here's a thought I came home today and, as usual fired up CM. I had an urge to work on my Greyhound skills, so I thought I'd try a quickbattle pitting 1500 points of Greyhounds versus an assorted array of German armor. Consider it a "training excercise" When it comes time to select my troops, I realize that there's no way in quickbattle to select 1500pts worth of greyhounds. "armor" and "mechanized" forces won't let you mass the small quick stuff. You have to balance it out. "Ok, I thought, I'll create the scenario" a bit more work, but with "autogenerate map" it shouldn't be a problem. Until, of course, I realized that having selected my force of greyhounds, I'll now have to select the entire German force as well -not only a bother to begin with but also effectively eliminating FOG of WAR. So, in effect, creating my own scenario doesn't cut the mustard either. then I got to thinking...(philisophical rant follows) So, I want to play a scenario that's not neccessarily historical, but I -as a game player -want to try it. Whether for training purposes or whatever. The army tries out different strategies between wars. The ones that are in vogue when when the war starts are the ones that make it into the history books and called "historical". Who's to say, if someone of less moral fibre was leading american troops into battle, he wouldn't have used a conscript recon screen to draw fire and flush out enemy positions for his veterans? Who's to say that someone wouldn't have created a formidable force of Greyhounds to flank and take out the Panzers' rears? A simulation works on two levels. The first is a HISTORICAL SIMULATION which is accurate (obviously) historically. The physics may be abstracted, but the effect and immersion are pretty damn close to "being there". The second is a PHYSICAL SIMULATION which recreates the physical dynamics of whatever it is you are simulating, be it an f-16 fighter or a company of Patton's 3rd army. You then have free reign to do whatever the machine (or company) is physically capable of. Each simulation attracts a different type of player. The person attracted to PHYSICAL SIMULATIONS lies somewhere between the HISTORICAL WARGAMER and the VIDEO GAME PLAYER on that thread a few weeks back. He's the guy that wants to recreate Normandy exactly as it was on D-Day 1944, but field an army of his own choosing. He's not looking for that killer combination that will dominate every PBEM, but does want to try them all. He's not necessarily looking to beat the system, but he does want to push the system to the envelope! CM as it is works on the historical level. I'm very satisfied. I've got no complaints whatsoever. And, of course I respect Steve and Charles and any direction they decide to take their game. But when I see someone say that they'd like to see something like varied troop qualities or unlimited Greyhounds I can definitely see where they're coming from. Even if it isn't historical. Because, alas, the two are quite incompatable. The whole fun of Physical Simulation is throwing the history books out the window. But maybe there IS a compromise. I believe there was mention that the HISTORICAL button was going to be included in the next patch or CM2 regarding vehicle values. Perhaps it could be modified slightly (i.e. a third level) so that there was a completely AHISTORICAL button. When this mode is toggled, all rules go out the window. Any troop type or quality can be chosen. Any vehicle used. On any date. Hell, you could have Green troops supported by Elite Pershings in July of '44 if that suited you. Ok, I'm done rambling. Just my two cents. P.S. (by way of example)Before taking on the Austrians in Italy, no one had ever massed cannons or flanked with cavalry, yet Napoleon managed to alter the course of military thinking by using the same troops in a completely new way. If he were playing CM and not creating an empire, he wouldn't have that opportunity. He would be forced to use those troops in basically the same way as everyone else had up until then because that would've been deemed "historically correct". (disclaimer: this is not a CM put down!!!! It is simply the PHYSICAL SIMULATOR'S take on the situation) --------- I am also of the opinion that there are no gamey tactics. For me, the engine is a model of the games's reality, not necessarily historical reality. So, in CM's world, tank crews DO have radios. Commanders DO send troops on suicide missions. For everything unbelievable you can do in CM, there is an equal and opposite thing you can't do that you'd be able to do in real life. So called 'gamey tactics' simply make up for this difference. ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

Sorry 'bout the misspellings and any ramblings. it is late over here. It seems from the arguments I've read that the main argument against unlimited quality types (aside from the fact that it would get in the way of TCP/IP) is the fact that it would allow for unhistorical (i.e. "gamey") tactics. It doesn't matter that troops actually were of mixed or not since BTS has decided that, for their historical simulation, troop qualities shouldnt be mixed. Therefore it now falls under the same catagory as rarity vehicle values, massed vehicles, date limitations, etc. The AHISTORICAL setting simply kills all these birds with one simple stone, stripping BTS's historical trappings from the game and leave us with an engine we can experiment with -a physical model of the Western Campaign we can shape as we see fit. If our view of history is that the troops should've been more mixed, we can do it. If we want to see what would've happened if the Pershing was introduced from the very outset of the war, we can do it. If we want to train with 2000 points worth of Jeep MG's, we can. This, of course, would in no way affect those that agree with BTS or don't have an opinion, since they can use the default HISTORICAL setting. ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

Here's a thought, a bit off topic but I think related. I came home today and, as usual fired up CM. I had an urge to work on my Greyhound skills, so I thought I'd try a quickbattle pitting 1500 points of Greyhounds versus an assorted array of German armor. Consider it a "training excercise" When it comes time to select my troops, I realize that there's no way in quickbattle to select 1500pts worth of greyhounds. "armor" and "mechanized" forces won't let you mass the small quick stuff. You have to balance it out. Then, I remembered this thread and Chup's suggestion. "Ok, I thought, I'll create the scenario" a bit more work, but with "autogenerate map" it shouldn't be a problem. Until, of course, I realized that having selected my force of greyhounds, I'll now have to select the entire German force as well -not only a bother to begin with but also effectively eliminating FOG of WAR. So, in effect, creating my own scenario doesn't cut the mustard either. then I got to thinking...(philisophical rant follows) So, I want to play a scenario that's not neccessarily historical, but I -as a game player -want to try it. Whether for training purposes or whatever. The army tries out different strategies between wars. The ones that are in vogue when when the war starts are the ones that make it into the history books and called "historical". Who's to say, if someone of less moral fibre was leading american troops into battle, he wouldn't have used a conscript recon screen to draw fire and flush out enemy positions for his veterans? Who's to say that someone wouldn't have created a formidable force of Greyhounds to flank and take out the Panzers' rears? A simulation works on two levels. The first is a HISTORICAL SIMULATION which is accurate (obviously) historically. The physics may be abstracted, but the effect and immersion are pretty damn close to "being there". The second is a PHYSICAL SIMULATION which recreates the physical dynamics of whatever it is you are simulating, be it an f-16 fighter or a company of Patton's 3rd army. You then have free reign to do whatever the machine (or company) is physically capable of. Each simulation attracts a different type of player. The person attracted to PHYSICAL SIMULATIONS lies somewhere between the HISTORICAL WARGAMER and the VIDEO GAME PLAYER on that thread a few weeks back. He's the guy that wants to recreate Normandy exactly as it was on D-Day 1944, but field an army of his own choosing. He's not looking for that killer combination that will dominate every PBEM, but does want to try them all. He's not necessarily looking to beat the system, but he does want to push the system to the envelope! CM as it is works on the historical level. I'm very satisfied. I've got no complaints whatsoever. And, of course I respect Steve and Charles and any direction they decide to take their game. But when I see someone say that they'd like to see something like varied troop qualities or unlimited Greyhounds I can definitely see where they're coming from. Even if it isn't historical. Because, alas, the two are quite incompatable. The whole fun of Physical Simulation is throwing the history books out the window. But maybe there IS a compromise. (Chup, Deadmarsh -now shake hands). I believe there was mention that the HISTORICAL button was going to be included in the next patch or CM2 regarding vehicle values. Perhaps it could be modified slightly (i.e. a third level) so that there was a completely AHISTORICAL button. When this mode is toggled, all rules go out the window. Any troop type or quality can be chosen. Any vehicle used. On any date. Hell, you could have Green troops supported by Elite Pershings in July of '44 if that suited you. Ok, I'm done rambling. Just my two cents. P.S. (by way of example)Before taking on the Austrians in Italy, no one had ever massed cannons or flanked with cavalry, yet Napoleon managed to alter the course of military thinking by using the same troops in a completely new way. If he were playing CM and not creating an empire, he wouldn't have that opportunity. He would be forced to use those troops in basically the same way as everyone else had up until then because that would've been deemed "historically correct". (disclaimer: this is not a CM put down!!!! It is simply the PHYSICAL SIMULATOR'S take on the situation)

ok, wait. I've changed my mind... ------------------ "I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

Thanks for the suggestions, kids. After much deliberation, I've settled on two complimentary signatures. See below.... ------------------ "If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward." - Jack Handey You are under the unfortunate delusion that simply because you run away from danger, you have no courage. You're confusing courage with wisdom. -The Wizard of Oz

Jasymilated! HA!!! Got there first! ------------------ This space for rent. by the way, welcome aboard! [This message has been edited by Jadayne (edited 10-18-2000).]

speaking of which, where's my file? I wanna see if my panzerfaust suicide rush worked. ------------------ This space for rent.

As a civilian raised on Hollywood fare, I'm not sure I like the idea of our guys wearing the black hats. Especially when told that they express our "values". Just a non-soldierly point of view. ------------------ This space for rent.

*punt* I'm just kicking this back up to the top before I go to bed to see if anyone across the pond has access to the game. Otherwise, it can wait till next week. Using the pictures from ebay, I was able to recreate (roughly) the side of the map with the island. The scale seems t work if you use a company with limited armour support for each of the T2 army groups.

supercool. The ebay web site has a couple of photos with the board, but usually it's partially obscured by the box and pieces. So, I can start on the rough layout now and finish it when you get me the photo. Thanks a lot Tom! I really was shocked to see that Hasbro discontinued Tactics2. That and D-Day were the first wargames I ever played. (I can't remember which one first.) Tactics is the perfect toothcutter for getting people interested in wargames -not too detailed and good fun. You'd think even Hasbro would be able to find a way to market it to the "lowest common denominator" crowd (their target audience). Maybe it's too violent. ------------------ This space for rent.

yeah, I know it's operational. I just wanted to play with it and see if I could shrink down the scale successfully.

lol

I was thinking about creating a map based loosely on the TacticsII board. Unfortunately, my own copy of the game is over 5000 miles away and I can't remember exactly where everything lies, so I thought I'd look for it somewhere on the web. Alas, not only were there no images of the board available (3 solid hours of surfing) -there don't seem to be many copies of the game left in print (damn you hasbro!)! Thus it becomes imperative that this map is created for posterity at least. So, if anyone has a copy of TacticsII and a digital camera, would it be possible to take a photo of the gameboard and upload it to me? My address is douglas.kaufman@keysystem.com thanx doug ------------------ This space for rent.

hey, everyone's stealing the good sigs before I can get to them! ------------------ This space for rent.

hey, If you hit the back and forward buttons fast enough, the cartoon becomes animated! ------------------ This space for rent.

Actually, leaving all troop qualities available is the easiest option programming-wise, so you've got to assume that if Steve and Charles have taken the trouble to grey-out some qualities, they must have a reason for it, be it gamey play, historical accuracy, or whatever. ------------------ This space for rent.

do any of you guys even remember the "I shall taunt you a second time" thread that was actually the precurser to the cesspool thread? And I think there was another before that even. (If you guys wanna get REALLY nostalgic) aaaah the good old days.

"If you define cowardice as running away at the first sign of danger, screaming and tripping and begging for mercy, then yes, Mr. Brave man, I guess I'm a coward." - Jack Handey" YES!!!! that's the one I've been looking for!!!!! I also always loved the pumpkin/grenade one. ------------------ This space for rent.

Chup, nobody's arguing the point you make. It's just the, um, forcefulness with which you made it. You went from defcon 2 to defcon 5 in two posts. ------------------ This space for rent.

hehe ------------------ This space for rent.

um, guys.... please excuse Chupacabra -he just got back from "monday night drinkies" ------------------ This space for rent. [This message has been edited by Jadayne (edited 10-16-2000).]

holy crap! triple post! sorry -my computer belched. ------------------ This space for rent.