Sublime

Crap rereading your post @Thomm Ive always took it to mean in the context of a general offensive or preemptive (in Soviet minds) attack. Interesting you say UK and France werent targetted, I dont know about France but the UK could easily have been the most nuked spot on Earth going by Soviet nuke plans Ive seen posted online especially again on arrse.com. Stuff Ive seen on the US hasmt been as specific beyond that any major population center or military base, major port, missile silo area, would be definite targets. Enough for me most of my life Ive lived definitely in some sort of nukes cross hairs whether in the FRG, near Wright Patterson AFB, near Norfolk, in Boston,and a brief 9 mnths on Maxwell AFB. The SLAM concept has always been very frightening to me personally only recently superceded by the Poseidon unmanned nuclear doomsday torpedo. All the effects are bad enough but I often sit and think the largest nuke ever detonated was 50 mt and it was just ridiculously big, the designers dared not actually detonate a 100mt device. And each of these torpedoes is 100mt. Smh

Ok so now i have more time. Minor digging on the starship seems to indeed prove I was wrong. However it has been mentioned there were significsnt teething problems with the gun and the missiles had a nasty habit of venting exhaust into the crew compartment. http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/US/medium-tank-m60a2-starship/ This site had the best info Ive gleaned in a very cursory search mind you. It did help a lot to the M1 and of course the mbt70 did as well which was a fascinating project I kinda wish they.d made..

Oh yes ONCE AGAIN as I statwd above nukes and chem weapons have no place in CM like heavy bomber actioms before Op Cobra or naval bomvsrdment. Make the map and maybe add so envirpmental effects to troop speed and health thats it. For the Vienna nuke context I assume it was for an invasion of Western Europe/atomic WW3 scenario. A quick google of Soviet nuclear map plan of Vienna revealed will tell you better than I. Basicallt every city in Europe neutral or not was getting nuked unless they were with the Soviets Link the the first article that appeared on a search and there are dozens at least -https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/1364037/Vienna-was-top-of-Soviet-nuclear-targets-list.html Accdg that article I was wrong only in that it was to receive 2 500 KT warheads instead of multiple megaton warheads. Still 1 mt easily would destroy any major city imo For whilst on more spread out cities the blast damage wont be as severe further out the thermal effects causing fires, and of course the radioactive poisoning would just make the entire area a no go. Add to that hundreds of thousanda of casualties and dead if not more, looters, and in that scenario probably combat as well and nukes going off all over the world. Its a truly truly amazingly scary thought that us, as all humans together whatever our views about anything - would willingly have gotten ourselves in a position that had a high chance of leading to our extinction and we were self cognizant of that and rode with it. Its just.. To me its insanely selfish to the future. And sorry last derailment but 1 jeez that Russ Poseidon nuke torp is friggin scary huh 2 ironic i think russias testing of their own Slam type missile may be why the US is pulling ouf of this last arms treaty and I find it ironic that during the 60s our higher ups apparently were told the Soviets probably would go nuclear before thebweapon went operational... Here we sit with them trying to make it and our reaction at worst seems to be to cancel a treaty?

Whilst this is inline with 60s Societ thinking as I pointed out Soviet plans from that era that have been proven real and are readily available envisioned hitting Vienna with several multi megaton strategic weapons neutral or not.

Isnt that all hexonagol though? EDIT no it isnt and doesnt look bad at all but not up my.alley for operational/tactical warfare. I will submit to massive abstraction in something like CK2 Ill admit but Paradox games IMO just does grand strategy so well I couldnt help myself. That said even then the warfare continually drives me insane. Total War just.. I have some fond memories especially of MTW but its too mainstream for me to take really seriously opposed to some other games that deal with history. Sorry for the tangent.

OK so let me get this straight. So far HerrTom and a couple other people agreed with Capt Miller agreeing wirh Bil Hardenberger who agreed with me about the use of tac nukes? Geez you guys think if you.re gonna toss kudos out you could name the first guy in the chain. Ok Bil H i think you may have me, and JK may be right I may be thinking of the Sheridan. HOWEVER to remark on the service trials thing... Im certain youve heard the tales and seen the movies about the Bradleys development cycle and the pentagon/mil indust complex trying to just push through an inferior weapon system knowing it had major flaws.. DMS Gorbachev was ONLY in power in the 80s for about half the 80s. And I think thats a sorta "unique" view to say he "surrendered" to the west. i hate to see what you think him "winning" would have looked like. Of course Soviet 60s plans had zillions of nukes. NATO plans until the 80s had nuclear response if you guys shat and didnt wipe enough with old Pravdas (interestingly when you read BAOR yarns on Arrse.com the stories from the Brit SOXMIS mission - basically legit open spying - one of their absolute gold mine sources for info was old Soviet latrine spots after maneuvers. The socialist paradise didnt have toilet paper for the average folk I guess, nor even lower field grade ones.) Ohh JK that was interesting to bad Suvorov has been thoroughly discreditted and I dont believe anything he says. Especially about WW2. ESPECIALLY.

I dont think itd be syrians with cooler tanks. BS is hard because the quality of weapons and advances in tech but also because its near peer enemies. Yes you lose some sensor lethality but thats drastically outweighed by the MASSIVE numbers and "total war from the gate" mentality a WW3 vs the SU would have entailed - nevermind the SU was in an infinitely stronger position than Russia ever could be even after a win in BS. Soviet tactics varied amongst higher quality units especially and arent as cut and dried as popular opinion or indeed you depict. CM:A shows low quality Russian troops and its hardly just human wave attacks. Also the diff WarPac countries fought differently with the East Germans being considered especially fanatical. In fact you give me several hind Ds, arty support, a couple plts mized of T72s and T80s along with a guards motor rifle regiment battalion group and give someone else some AH1s, Tows, XM1s, Bradleys, etc along with an equivalent US sized group..and we got very heavily contested fixed air etc, I bet Id give any Western player a run for their money. In the 80s air to air was pretty close together the west pulling ahead, but especially on the ground the parity wasnt as marked at all. It took about 10 years for the abrams to really mature and until.mid to late 80s before the US helo fleet even had enough apaches and blackhawks for those to outnumber Ah1s and Uh1s.. Same really goes I feel for an attack on West Germans or British units. The smaller battles CM covers would be very interesting and really could go either way. Of course strategically after a few days the West probably would have been overrun and itd have gone nuclear. But you could easily make a CM game with modules initially only covering that few weeks in hypothetical.time. The nuke thing is another reason why I like the mid or late 40s (47 or 48 Airlift crisis) idea too. Of course for WW3 tac nukes could be used like insanely heavy bomber attacks (i.e. McNairs demise on day 1 of Op Cobra 1944) are figured tobhave just happened with the appropriate moonscape. Maybe add in some nbc models and penalties to troops fatigue etc etc. Add some effects to make a more desolate nuke scape for eaxh type of map i suppose. Or simply the game could cover WW3 until nukes occurred. In the 80s besides the immediate start in 45 the Cold War had the best chance not to immediately go nuclear and perhaps at least last until one side or another began really losing, or a couple days or weeks. Just as likely not, tbh one of my earliest memories of my life was my dad explaining if the bad guys come I shouldnt worry about it because it.d end very very soon. I thought he meant we.d kick their ass didnt realize he meant we.d be vaporized probably by a spetnaz nuke or something. ( lived in West Germany, USAF officer dependent 85 to 91)

Yes IIRC if you look up chieftain talks or maybe its anither vid on youtube but it had a very large caliber 152mm ( right? ) main gun and yes itd completely throw the shillelagh sights off and it.d be useles after it fired. The entire tank was a disaster. Lots of good ideas but.. SEQUIOA: Not if you just fired the missiles. The gun if you fired another round though such as HE, the shillelaghs aiming would be thrown off and had to be taken and recalibrated again. Look at blacktail defense iirc. It has great failures of tanks and other weapons. Other stuff. All txt but it elaborates on the starship

the starship iwud be interesting if we got it. Becayse after one main round shot the missiles were useless. Itd throw off the aiming system totally. Id love to read the outraged posts until theu found out that was a faithful model

Well the world very very mucb almost went to war in the fall of 83 over Able Archer. Thats pretty much universally agreed as the closest to WW3 we got in the 80s and perhaps at all ( C Missile Crisis in 62 obviously is a strong contender) so late 83 would be great. Im sure a lot of equipment that theoretically was phased out was still arnd, maybe mothballed or back in the US but would show up on the field within a month or two if the human race lastwd that long.

I disagree in that EVERYONE was tapped out -Russia had lost terribly but probably could have fought on another few years. (I want to add i do agree its mostly likely why it didnt happen, everyome was still war weary and noone wanted to have to have a vicious Ost Front 2 rematch within a month of the end of part 1. I mean jeez even with the Nazis gung ho for it Germany still took from 1918 to 1939 to be able.to turn to aggressive conquest then - and I still marvel that the only nation thats been acknowledged as the most capable enemy that lost WW1 was able to give the world a run for its money again just 2p short years later. Let alone losing 2 world wars amd 20 years later be a leading European nation; I digress..) America definitely had nowhere near the casualties of Russia or Germany America easily could have fought a huge ground war as far as bodies are concerned. Britain was very low but not out. Canada still had a good amount of men IIRC. Yes it.d be a way more American heavy show with maybe a German corps total. Brit units. Canucks. The French would probably get pressured into quickly rearming and pumping men out.

Ive always wanted a CM Fulda Gap ideally with modules not just say for new servixe branches but also maybe a new year say original is 1985, 3rd module is a 1978 bunch of units you could do on same maps. Though seeing as theyd have to make a lot of new stuff Ive always held a candle maybe if enough of us got on board we could persuade BFC that a good finisher title for the CMx2 engine after west and east are done to take the models etc from east amf west and germany and do a WW3 1945 scenario. Even the TO&Es would be the same only maybe different for a reconstituted Wehrmacht if the Allies did that. Frankly I dont think we would have done it. Maybe a few small units and volunteers but Germany was just tapped out by 1945.

CM:A and the RTDinas were my puberty years of CMx2 RedFor. lotsa good memories and horror stories

All we really need is someone to convert Paper Tigers excellent MASSIVE Redfor on Redfor "Road to Dinas" campaign, which also is branching and so big your wins and losses really seem to affect things and progress. Versus other campaigns Ive had where Id lose a mission terribly - knowing because the briefing I was the absolute last chance - and fail and after the battle still progress. Excellent campaign and sooo prescient, people talk about BFC guessing hotspots but PT even got the civil war thing right.

Yes i definitely mimagined BFCs take on uncons would be paramilitaries prpbably mostly fascist types defending Ukraine and uncons for Novo Rossiya uncons I also pictired higer end uncons like Wagner Group... is there an infamous or elite ukrainian merc group like Americas Blackwater USA or Russias Wagner

Thanks. I honestly cant remember if that was what I remembered or what. Again though Im b@t$hit crazy soo...

Hell no. I dont think I ever got beyond turn 5 and I think my first few tries I logged off after setting up some or all units. Too friggin much lol. I did like CMx1s operations with a big assed master map where damage is persistent and knocked out tanks stay unless salvageable better than CMx2s. We.re very fortunate to have the likes of Paper Tiger creating operations that really think out of the box and used really creative work arounds - pete wennman and JonS deserve as much credit as well. I do remember the first scenario I played when I got BB full was 'A Warm Place to Sleep'. Of course I played the pre release demo over and over. I only remember 'Yelnia Stare' though I cant remember the name of a 2nd battle if it was there. Im sure it was.

Hmm ok maybe Im wrong then. I really seem to recall him saying theyd like to add them - and yes i know exactly what youre saying about current events vs the game story line, I know its two 'worlds'. I 100% remember seeing USMC and VDV and I know more was said as well.

Yeah they specifically said they planned to have USMC and VDV, ISTR Russian marines as well. It was also said that they wanted to add irregular forces for both ukrainian sides later.

I also remember when the close combat makers came here, what was it like 6 months after BO was out?- and actually were complete douchebags. I was relaly disappointed I had been a fan of it all to CC3, though 2 with the grand campaign was by far the best. But yes I was relaly surprised and shocked by one of CCs creators coming off as utterly just jealous and arrogant. And he really couldnt make any coherent points on why CC was better or even why it had to be a contest and he was here. It really was like... Akward I was almost embarrassed for him. Worst still he trolled the site for a little while after.

Yeah you absolutely predate everyone then. I forget where I heard about it but I read an AAR and I was utterly fascinated. I immediately was disappointed the infantry was abstracted, I do remember that, but during the AAR at one point a rivers crossed because it was frozen over and I was hooked. Id lurk on the board somewhat and really liked the vibe, when I actually was playing the gold demo and waiting for my copy to arrive. Thats when I occasionally started posting but I was never prolific at all until CMx2. I did have a major burst of activity around 03 with CMBB. Back to BO, I remember actually getting the manual in the mail with the cd (it was square with the manual) shrink wrapped around it. It was right around the DDay anniversery that year (2000) and it was a great day. The most memorable and best CMx1 release in my opinion was CMBB. I took a long hiatus and never got AK and missed the release of SF (luckily lol) and when I came back I first actually got Afghanistan. The 1:1 modelling was the only thing from CMx1 I had considered a glaring issue and that being adressed I got the entire SF family except the Brits (always a regret) and so on and so forth. Anyways that was probably a very boring post to read sorry - I do miss some of the old timers and I wonder what became of them like Fionn Kelly or JasonC for example.

Oh thanks I didnt know that. Still Ill leave it, not feeling really clever right now. So you.re slim huh? I remember you well, no wonder I like your posts etc, I always liked ur other posts as SLIM. Glad youre still around once I read the name it clicked..

Oooh idk if you wanna do that. Thatd put me at the top of the list for almost 80% of the people here. I was lurking from september 99 made an account in like may 00 when the gold BO demo got released. Im inherently suspicious of anything that places me in the top rank - im waaay to cynical and self effacing to accept that I will admit though that join date is so old now I keep this account I made when i was friggin 15 (lol) and named after my favorite band. I wish Id had the good taste and epic handle of Gen Ripper with that pic, I forget if its from his 'fluoridation of water speech' or when he was on the base PA system.. But ya always liked ur handle

Thanks yes I was reading the wiki as well. Yes I always am here.. Even when Im not I get sucked right back into it. Technically I live in Revere ( so closer neighbors than you think, and Im honored, not being sarcastic ) and work in Boston. My son still lives over in Southie too but I want to get him out of there, living in the D st pjs. Sigh. Ok sorry for the derailment.

Vet 0369 i really appreciate your input. Im really interested in any other details you have on that coup plot in the 30s here in the US Wow a little google.. Lol but I wouldnt have expected to hear Smedley Butler brought up as a 2x MoH winner and "the fighteningist marine i ever knew" according to Chesty Puller. Its interesting as Butler testified before congress he was to be appointed head to a fascist veterans group. I guess its probably easy to sling moral mud from 80 or 90 years distance - I can see how with the Bonus Army and the Great Depression the conditions would be right for the Business Plot. Though some of what Im reading claims it never really was going to happen..