Mannheim Tanker

Not a good solution here. I can't see the Germans having to wait a turn before attacking Denmark, for instance, nor having to suffer Russian attacks for a turn before commencing a "surprise" blitzkrieg. </font>

The easiest solution is to have a rule like we have in Europe Aflame: you can't DW and attack a neutral nation on the same turn. This "frees" the neutral nation's army to position itself for a proper defense. It balances the game by preventing someone from completely blindsiding you.

You are making an assumption. Please quote me where I have stated this. </font>

Imagination, eh? Hehe...I thought the whole point of buying the game was so that we would no longer have to imagine the perfect strategic-level wargame. I realize that you like it the way it is. The point is, a sizeable minority (or is it a majority...probably is) prefer to have a playback for whatever reason. It can always be made optional so that you can imagine your opponents' moves while the rest of us get to enjoy watching them. To each his own. It just seems silly to rule it out entirely when it has such strong support is all.

Hehe...so the Germans watched their units get depleted in Normandy for 2 months but had no idea where the damage was coming from? Or the Russians watched their front line crumble, yet had no idea where the attack was coming from? All joking aside, I think you're missing the mark. You're confusing tactical intelligence with strategic decisions. The replay isn't giving you anything that a historical commander wouldn't have had. In any case, the game isn't very interesting without the replay option for many, so it is a playability issue with a lot of people. [ June 03, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Mannheim Tanker ]

Well, since we play the game for fun, I see this as a big deal! It doesn't matter so much if Excel gets boring but it is important to retain an element of fun in a game. That's only a small part of it, though. It is also really important to know whether you lost all of those points due to enemy bombers, or is it his infantry chewing away at you. Knowing this can help you make critical decisions during your turn. If you assume it's his bombers pounding away at you, stationing extra air fleets nearby is useless if his armor is pouncing on your infantry instead. Another useful element of a replay is that you can see where his units are moving to and from. For example, in Europe Aflame I get glimpses of my opponents forces moving, even with FOW, and this can help me predict what he is up to. Of course, he can also use this to dupe me, but the point is that this is information that was historically available to theater-level commanders. This is all mandatory information that any commander should have at his disposal.

Hehe...isn't that the Micro$oft strategy? BTW: you should consider doing standup, Jeff, as you had me rolling with that post ("the freaking Bismarck!"). I second that. I know that there are many out there that think I'm trolling or simply out to bash SC. This is hardly the case. I think Hubert has done an awesome job for one guy on this project. However, it's because he's soooo close to nailing it down on the playability aspect that I'm critical on a few issues, with this PBEM replay issue being #1 on my list. Call it frustration at another game being oh, so close, yet missing the mark. (unless of course there are some marked improvements from the demo).

In your opinion. I respectfully disagree however, as it's a game killer for me. I already find the replayability of SC limited with the AI, so it will have to be strictly PBEM for me. If there is no replay, I'm not buyin'.

Assuming that your opponent hasn't pounded you to dust in the mean time. The problem arises due to the game mechanics surrounding any turn based game. A player can take advantage of the artificial IGO-UGO system. Therefore, the scale of the game is irrelevant in this case. Other games of this scale have used "retreat" rules quite effectively to reduce the abuse that comes from people gaming the turn system in their favor.

Straha, you might add to the list that country ownership (shading) should be added to the Theater Map in the upper right corner. As it stands, that little map isn't useful for much aside from rapidly repositioning the viewer.

Interesting story. It's always a treat to meet those rare people that seem to have everything "together", isn't it? Well, I'm hardly the right guy then if you're looking for another. I might be "illuminated" by the fluorescent tubes here at work, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not Illuminati!

Huh? :confused: The "I give up" wasn't at all directed at you, grimlord. Sorry. Straha</font>

Must be my imagination then. Lord know I have nothing better to do than debate an imaginary argument that never occured. And no, I didn't know full well that you were looking for examples of where I slighted you. I read it as a request for specifics regarding my criticism of the game. Apparently you never read this: Rather, I'm posing some questions that I and otherse obviously feel should be addressed. If I can play a strategic level WWII game that is several years old and offers more than SC, then something is wrong here. If you don't care to debate this point, Straha, then I'm done responding to you in this thread, as it's pointless. I've tried to get the discussion back on track, but you are apparently so insecure that you think I somehow have it out for you. I don't even know you, and you misread my initial post re: the lackey comment (it wasn't referring to you). Chill out and enjoy the game.

Good point, Grimlord. There should be some mechanism, however, to allow a unit to retreat on its own accord when it is reduced to a certain level rather than just sitting there idly while being pounded to dust. Perhaps a "pinning" rule could come into play to give the attacker an option for preventing a unit from automatically retreating when it's getting pounded. It just seems too easy for the attacker to gang up on isolated or exposed units, when in reality a unit in that position would likely retreat on its own initiative. Only gotten them (rockets) once, and the Brit AI bought an extra bomber just to attack them. Hehe...they did that to me too. It was actually pretty funny to see how single (simple?) minded the AI was in its response to my useless rocket that was out of range of any targets!

I disagree. Just look at Rommel's retreat across Africa, or the Wehrmacht's 2-year long retreat from Moscow for examples of armies retreating in the face of overwhelming attacks. On a different note, someone earlier mentioned the problems with strategic bombing. Has anyone found rockets to be a useless as I have? They are certainly not worth the cost IMO, other than the fact that the AI becomes obsessed with bombing them. If one wanted to use them as bait for luring enemy a/c into combat, they work OK in that role.

I agree. I noticed this right away and wondered how long it would take for it to be abused in a PBEM. What makes it so bad is that you wouldn't even be able tell if someone had used it against you.

I give up. </font>

If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here. </font>

If you reread my posting, I'm not calling specific individuals "lackeys" for their support, but rather their hesistance to honestly debate certain points about the game. There is a difference, but that is apparently lost on many around here.

See, and here we have something in common. Peace? Straha</font>

True, but you're also making some assumptions based on the level of abstraction in this game. In real life, that corps or army doesn't occupy just the single hex as is seen in SC, but rather it is spread out along the coastline. Short of having smaller units (something it seems we all want to avoid in SC), there must be some way of compensating for the fact that you're trying to represent a distributed unit with a discrete point. A simple way of doing this is to represent usable beachheads by single points that can then be defended in a more realistic (and play-balanced) manner. Currently, short of building 500 armies to station in each coastal hex, we have no way of building the Atlantic Wall like it existed historically. Hi Pal, thanks. I've been lurking on the SC forum since it was started and have followed with interest most of the discussions. (BTW, I have no idea how to put the umlaut over the "a" in your name - my apologies!). While many of these questions have been discussed, not all of them have, nor have they been discussed exhaustively. I was merely trying to stimulate some discussion on those questions that have not been thoroughly discussed yet. BTW: Are you still playing W@W? [ May 29, 2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: Mannheim Tanker ]

Hehe...I didn't think bump was a secret to anyone on the internet these days. It's just a way of "bumping" a topic back up to the top of the list on the forum by posting in it. No big secrets, no illuminati...

bump There are some good suggestions in this post that might help take SC to the next level. I find it curious that next to nobody has addressed any of these points.

Since the game as a whole is not really all that historically accurate, the instant builds don't bother me much. IMO, part of the strategy is in anticipating what your opponent can/will build next turn.

Excellent post, Bloody Bucket. This is exactly what I've been trying to get at. I certainly think that SC has the potential to be one of those can't-put-it-down games, but it still needs something...I can't quite put my finger on it. Admittedly, perhaps this is because it is still in Beta, but I'm hesitant to write it off with that as the reason. If the success of SC is going to be due to its elegance, then we can pretty much write off a lot of these arguments based on historical accuracy (a historically accurate simulation or game it isn't!). The only thing that I've found attactive about SC over the other games of this scale that I've played (and continue to play) is the fact that SC can be quickly played in an evening. This means that unlike groggier games, I can actually play it with my wife. Hehe...if $25 is the price of domestic tranquility when it comes to gaming, then it's worth the price.