Mark IV

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Runyan99: "Ohh! Sheizen!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think Scheisse is what you're looking for, pronounced with a soft "s". "Oh" is usually "Ach" in German. None of the above appear in CM, nor does "Hitler", as others have noted.

I feel his Presence... I know he lurks somewhere near. He will come back when he is ready and will be welcomed.

I just killed a "light tank" and 2 20mm flaks which remained unidentified until my infantry advanced much closer. For several turns, the dead and burning tank in an open field remained identified as "light tank" until it was finally labeled as an armored car. The 2 flaks remained identified as "light gun" even longer, on the crest of a hill, even though I knew what they were by the sound. They were dead for 5 turns before the infantry got close enough for the generic icon and label to change to the flak guns.

Never mind. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 09-14-2000).]

I remember the story of a prison riot in Marquette (state pen) over being fed road-kill deer (abundant in MI, and the state cops bring 'em in). Having personally eaten road-kill deer, I don't understand what the beef was (HAHAHA)... Loosiana is the UP without the charm... or the teeth (some room for disagreement there)... or the snow... and when your skeeters have 4 months a year to make a living, they are HIGHLY motivated. Black flies don't connect with southerners- this is something entirely different than a housefly. More of a pit-gnat with jaws, and where there's one there's a million. They can burger an ungloved hand before you can say DEET, please. Canada, Alaska, and the northernmost tier of states are their hosts. They are naturally drawn to the Peng thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: Any of you guys been to da UP? If so, where?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From Detroit area originally, but the UP was the playground of choice... Iron River for rifle, Escanaba for a little of everything and walligators, Brevoort (NO one knows where that is) for grouse and archery, Carp River for salmon, the Soo & Mackinac for women (worked on the ferry for a summer job ). Greatest place in the world except for black flies, skeeters, January through March, and the economy, eh?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diceman: Think CM could model the weapon used to shoot at that "30 point buck"? Who did that song anyway? They play it every deer season up there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL, I first heard that while pumping gas at a self-serve up there, on my way to go deer hunting around Iron River. It was freezing but I stuck around to hear the whole thing (I didn't know the radio was going to play it once an hour for the balance of the trip). I have a game right now where I could use the triple-barreled laser-guided buck blaster (forget the rest of the specifications).

I shoot at them a lot. They're heavy monsters- check the ground pressure rating, and that may be one reason they tend to bog. Some time ago I posted about a Churchill who took 48 consecutive hits (from a pair of StuGs and a Mk IV) after I began counting, from about 300m. Only one was a gun hit. There is another thread called "What does Gun Damaged really mean?" on page 2 right now with much discussion on the frequency of gun hits.

If they're Bogged they still have a chance to get free. Once it changes to Immobilized, they're done for the scenario. There are various theories about the best move to try and un-Bog a vehicle, none of which are confirmed. The Bogged vehicle will automatically try to free itself until it changes to Immobilized (or gets free).

Pure oxygen, if you've access to a bottle. Ice water and aspirin if you don't.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JoePrivate: Like others I have rarely seen gun damage from direct fire, when it has happened it is usually from artillery so I setup a scenario and checked the results of 105 and 155 artillery<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That confirms my experience- the plunging trajectory of indirect fire weapons is much more likely to result in Gun Hits. As poor rune can attest- I maimed his Hetzer with a 60mm mortar round, while it was in a head to head duel with my Firefly. Better to be lucky than good.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj. Bosco: Aren't smoke feilds doing essentially the same thing as a knocked out vehicle would do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not really- smoke provides concealment only. Dead vehicles provide both cover and concealment (they stop bullets).

Man, is it ever hard to get a gun hit in CM. Last night I tried 3 different QB scenarios featuring armor, flat terrain, and variations on the theme. In the opening turn of the first QB (2000 pt. meeting engagement, more like Kursk than Overlord), there must have been at least 200 AP rounds fired. The second turn was much quieter, as the Shermans were mostly burning by then. No gun hits anywhere. I tried a mix of Axis vehicles and let the AI pick the Allies. Panthers, Mark IVs, Tigers, you name it. I included a Jagdpanzer, a Jagdpanther, and a Hetzer. Another version of same with some more trees and terrain, and I was finally able to produce a "Gun Hit- No Serious Damage" to a Mark IV. So I figure about one GH for 4-500 rounds for the evening. Allies were Vets, Axis Regulars. Why doesn't CM model enough Gun Hits in this highly vulnerable area of the AFV?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: the grease gun was nothing but a stripped down thompson.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Huh? They were both .45 ACP submachine-guns. Other than that, they had nothing in common. Totally different designs, different actions, different in every possible way. 10,000 Krummlauf-equipped MP44s were ordered in 1944. Contrary to popular belief, they were the 30-degree version, not 90-degree. Dunno how many made it into service in the west, but not very many. They just weren't a very good idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: I guess we all agree that the kinetic energy is the same, obviously (actio counterequal to reactio).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even more important is the total area over which the force is applied, known domestically as foot-pounds, probably meter/kilos for the metrically inclined. If you apply 20 pounds of force to a one foot square, there will be a slight pressure. If you apply that same pressure to a one-millimeter square, you will poke a hole in a person. A tank has 30 tons of inertia (not to mention damping buffers of various kinds) to absorb recoil. Take that same energy and apply it to a 75mm circle (actually far less area, thus higher focused pressure, at the hardened tip of the projectile before it collapses) and you poke holes in tanks. Some of them, anyway. I just haven't had that many gun hits in CM.

So, where's the data on how often gun hits occur in CM? You "think" they're around 15% (of total armor hits, I guess?). You "know" that 8% is too high. Actually, the stats in rune's article show that 8% of the total of damaged tanks exhibited gun damage, which is slightly different... I'll bet a few of those tanks had taken multiple hits, so it isn't necessarily 8% of total shots on target resulting in gun hits. I will have to stage some massive armor QBs and investigate.

The Gun Hit is an abstraction for ALL the things that go wrong with gunning, while leaving the tank operable as a motor vehicle. This only happens to include the optics as one of several possibilities. However, if the optics are dead, so is the gun. The tank is a complex system of mechanisms, and while they are built to take punishment, tank shells are built to dish it out. I am forced to agree with Mr. Aitken that this whole "case" is being built on "feelings", "beliefs", "I should thinks", etc., and that the way to propose a modification is with research. The main gun, in the front upper center of the AFV, is the most exposed portion of the vehicle to the enemy and will be center of mass to most enemy fire. Statistically, the gun mantlet area will take the most hits. It will not take a full penetration to disable it and there are many photos available of rounds visibly embedded in the armor. Gun hits are not necessarily an indicator of the fragility of a tank, but their toughness. The AFV gets whacked with a 10 lb. projectile (plus or minus) travelling at speeds of a high-powered rifle bullet, and keeps on going. That's amazing. If the tube is bent by a millimeter or two, it is wildly inaccurate and useless as a weapon. Much more, and it can explode when fired. How much do you "think" an incoming round would bend it? The idea of fighting an armored battle without the optical sighting system is laughable. TCs in some tanks (Shermans, for sure) had a rough iron sight for positioning the gunner on target, so he could engage with the gun. There is no way you could hit anything over 10m with such a system. I suggest that getting in some real tanks and sitting in the gunner's position, and/or some extensive research on documented WWII hit data, would be appropriate before "feeling" that the modeling is incorrect.

Just go to http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009082.html and collate those results.

HEY: There are 260 million people here, or more, and the whole bloody infrastructure is built on the English system. The resistance to metric is what it always is: COST. You need to understand the huge scale on which such a conversion must occur, and most of industry would have to convert overnight (for compatability) and simultaneously. A good rule, whenever we are tempted to ascribe the motivations of large masses of people to national pride or conspiracies, is to follow the money. We were supposed to convert in the 70s but there was no real incentive to either business or the consumer to do so. However, it meant retooling the (then) largest economy in the world, during a period of high unemployment, inflation, energy crisis, etc. The costs appeared to outweigh the benefits at the time. Now the problem is larger- the economy grew, and there is even more to retool, thus the cost is even higher. It still has to happen. (They do teach it in the schools.) I was quite comfortable with metric except for the silly Celcius temperature system, which makes no sense (larger increments, so less accuracy, based on arbitrary molecular phenomena- how primitive). When are you people going to wake up and go Fahrenheit?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: wot?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry for the confusion- responding to mensch's original post about the unbeatable offense in a 600-pt. QB.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Valdor: When do I get to meet '7 of 9'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After you kill the rest of us.

Crew experience makes a big difference, too- Veteran AC crews are much less likely to unass at the mere sight of a Greyhound. They are more likely to stay put and get killed... Regulars & Greenies tend to jump ship out of the softer vehicles more easily.

Interesting little battle, but I won on the first try. How much edge are you giving the AI? QB, 600 points, farmland, modest trees & hills, defending against Allied Probe. My AT got off one shot and missed, bang, gone. I got 4 plain HTs and a mortar HT, plus a Hetzer, a platoon with a schreck, a roadblock and a wooden MG bunker. The crew from the mortar HT was the big surprise- 8 inf. casualties caused, 5 captured. I issued very few orders except to the Hetzer; the crew's participation was on their own and they were one badass little pistol team. IMO, this was exactly the kind of scenario where a crew could "legitimately" chip in, because it was Alamo time and they were in the thick of it. Two other crews got kills. Axis Tactical, without really trying. Hetzer was out of HE for the last 6-7 turns or so. Cool thing was, AI shifted the whole axis of attack when the first one didn't work out right away- a creditable effort.