Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cyrano01: The programmer disagrees saying, 'Hang on chaps, what we need to do first is take the car back to the top of the mountain and reproduce the fault!'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My "reset" version had a mechanical engineer, an electrical enginer and a computer engineer, when the car suddenly stopped. The ME said "there must be a problem with the engine", the EE said no, it must be the electrical system". The Computer engineer said, no, let's all get out of the car then get back in, that should solve the problem. Henri

This is an AAR of a 1000--point Meeting Engagement TCPIP Quick Battle. It has some bearing on the discussion about the distribution of armor points in Meeting Engagements, the value of Hetzers against infantry, the relative resistance to breaking of US and German squads, and is probably the first AAR in History written by the loser! The map was a slightly wooded village map with small hills. The Germans in a 1000-pt QB ME have 200 points for armor vs 300 for the Allies (allegedly for historical reasons); since a Panther costs 199, I figured that was too risky, because if I lost it, that would probably leave me tankless against one or two remaining Allied tanks. This was probably wise, since it turned out that my opponent had used his 300 points to buy an M10 tanks destroyer and an M4 Sherman. I decided to go for 2 Hetzers, an infantry Company and bought 2 Pumas with my extra points (well, so much for historicity...). In addition to his two tanks, my opponent had a US veteran infantry platoon apparently consisting of John Wayne, Charles Bronson, Sylvester Stallone, Tom Hanks and other supermen who cannot be killed in order for Hollywood to keep making money. As the scenario started, I had one Puma slightly forward in the middle of the road that went all the way through the middle of the map through the village, with my 2 Hetzers and the other Puma slightly off to the right in the rear. The enemy had his M10 also on the road at the other end, and as soon as the scenario started, the M10 picked off my Puma and advanced a bit into view of one of my Hetzers, who put a shell through the front of the M10, to the consternation of my opponent, who wished that he had been a bit more reserved about the use of his M10. My guess that my opponent would have at least one heavy tank or TD had been right, and I was glad that I had the Hetzers.I was sure tht he would have another tank. While my infantry raced toward the village on both sides of the road, my remaining Puma moved far along the right flank toward the enemy rear, with the intention of wheeling left deep into enemy territory and hopefully flanking his remaining armor or perhaps killing some support units. The two victory flags were opposite each other in buildings on both sides of the road, about 60 m apart, and I parked my infantry in houses before the flags, keeping one platoon in some woods on the left as a covering force.I would not commit my infantry until the enemy intentions became clear. It turned out that his intention was to concentrate on the left side of the map, and he quickly seized the objective on that side as I pummeled him with artillery and fire from my 2 platoons on my left flank (fairly effectively, he later said). While this firefight developed, my Puma advancing far to the right spotted a Sherman coming up near the center on the other side of the village; the Puma and the Sherman shot at each other without effect while I tried without success to move my Hetzers to get a LOS to the Sherman. I spotted a bazooka unit moving rapidly to the right toward the Puma, so I moved it back toward my lines closer to and behind the Sherman, who did not dare turn toward the Puma out of fear of the two Hetzers.Despite having a clear shot at the flank of the Sherman, the Puma failed to hit it, and as it got closer, it was hit by machinegun fire and abandoned by the crew (BOO!...). The flag on the right had now also been captured by a US squad, but I could see that side of the village was almost free of enemy units, so I moved the squad on that side closer into houses adjacent to the flag, then rushed the lone unit there and captured the objective. Now I had the enemy platoons on the other side in a crossfire, and the only fly in the ointment was the Sherman, who was supporting his infantry from behind some houses on the far edge of the village. Now I moved my 2 Hetzers forward, one along the road and the other to the right, with the objective of getting the Sherman with a Pincer attack. The M4 should not be able to kill a Hetzer from the front, so I felt fairly confident that I had the upper hand if I avoipded exposing my flank. As the rightmost Hetzer moved to the right of the town, the Sherman tried to make some maneuver, but got confused due to the proximity of the houses and turned his flank to the Hetzer on the right just as it appeared from behind the houses. The Hetzer put a shell through the side of the Sherman, and things looked very bright. I had 2 Hetzers and an infantry platoon against one infantry platoon that had been pummelled incessantly by 2 81 mm mortars and who, I thought, must be fairly frazzled. At this point, Murphy's principle intervened and during the same minute, enemy mortar shells crashed down the house containing my Platoon commander on the right, and set the house with the flag on fire. My infantry ran out and were mowed down by enemy fire. Two almost intact squads and a HQ wiped out in a few seconds! Undounted, I brought forward my 2 Hetzers and began to fire HE at two houses across the road that contained enemy squads, and I managed to collapse the two houses.However this time the enemy squads inside kept fighting and none ran out, although they were severely attrited (one squad was down to one man). When my Hetzers ran out of HE, I ordered them to fire at the enemy with their MG, but I could never get one to do so, so I had to use the remaining AP rounds, which had no more effect than the HE on the apparently invulnerable Americans. While the Hetzers were supporting the infantry, I rushed the rubble with my squads with supporting fire from the other infantry, but the enemies there, although severely attrited and outnumbeed, killed all my assaulting squads. After a while, a couple of enemy squads who had been moving on my left flank assaulted my remaining squads, and despite fire from two HMGs that were my only units not short on ammo, they walked all over my men until only the invulnerable Americans and my hapless Hetzers remained on the map. At this point I requested a ceasefire, and conceded a minor victory to my opponent. Avoiding the debate about the wisdom of the armor point distribution, I found out 3 things in this battle: 1) Hetzers are practically useless against infantry; 2) German infantry is no match for US infantry in a close battle; 3) contrary to historical fact, US infantry is much harder to break than German: during the battle, not a single US squad broke, although a number of them were reduced to 1,2, or 3 men. Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chrisl: The Hetzer has a slow rate of fire to start with (the loader is on the wrong side of the breech), and if you knock out a crew member it's going to get slower. You don't necessarily know which crew member was taken out, but it could seriously ruin your day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is not a complaint because it is only one game, but last night in a TCPIP, I had 2 unbuttoned intact Hetzers who consistently refused to fire their machineguns at nearby enemy infantry. After I used up all the HE, I had to order them to fire AP at the infantry and then smoke. Now maybe they were firing invisible bullets, but from now on I'll keep a closer watch on my Hetzers to see what they do.If no one else has seen this, it is probably a burp in the program or bad luck or something and not worth pursuing. Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ksak: The ASL site is a knock-out. How are the PBEM scenarios?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It varies: twice now, my TPIP opponent has requested that we drop the game because it didn't look interesting. The latest one (forgot the name), my opponent sat on a hill with bunkers and I attacked on 3 sides. After a while he got bored of doing nothing and requested to start another. On the other hand, some are great, and there are plenty of them. Rune's collection is also good; I don't know where to get them excpet on the CMHQ chat forum. You ask and he mails the zip file. Henri

Specifically, I don't see the ceasefire offer, and if I do alt-c myself, when I press GO, the game freezes and I have to reboot. If I don't do alt-C and press go, the game is saved as usual and continues. This has happened with two consecutive moves. Henri

Look, I really have no idea if the change af armor points is better or worse, if it favors the Germans or the Allies, if it is more or less historical. But I WOULD like to know what was the rationale for making the change. Obviously it was to prevent the Germans in meeting engagements to have as much armor as the Allies, but WHY? I am flabbergasted that after 10 pages of discussions, questioning of motives, flame wars (gawd, even Oliver Stone and the JFK assassination have popped up...), such a simple answer has not been forthcoming. Or IS there an answer? Henri ================= "Gertrude, Gertrude, before you die, tell us: what is the answer?" "What is the question?..." (and Gertrude Stein died)

(Henri tiptoes in)... I'm not arguing for or against balance nor for nor against historical or anything, I'm just trying to understand. The argument I'm hearing FOR more Allied armor says that in Western Europe battles, the Allies DID have a higher ratio of armor to infantry than the Germans.OK, let's assume for argument's sake that this is true. But the ME point distribution also implies that either the Germans had more infantry OR more support vehicles than the Allies IN ABSOLUTE NUMBERS.Was this true? I doubt it, so here is what I suspect is the argument: first we must ensure that the higher ratio of armor/infantry of the Allies is respected to ensure histocity. But then to ensure play balance, we have to give the Germans more infantry than the allies (possibly killing the historicity). This only makes sense if in fact the Germans DID have more infantry in Western Europe than the Allies. Did they? Does anybody know? Did the Germans lose the War in Western Europe while having a force equal in numbers to that of the Allies? If this is not the rationale, then for heaven's sake, can SOMEONE please tell us what the rationale IS? Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: I would not claim it is unbalancing, I just think it is annoying and has no good purpose. It does NOT force the German player to have a more "historical" mix, quite the opposite. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Unless of course, one were to claim that the Germans in general had more infantry And I am not so sure about that... Henri

This is not an opinion, but I would like a clarification. I was under the impression that the point cost of units had been designed to ensure a fair (balanced) battle between two players. Now I am hearing two different reasons why the Allies get more points in meeting engagements. a) To compensate the fact that Allied tanks are inferior -i.e. to ensure a "fair" fight. To ensure historicity. Which is it? If it is (a), then the original point distribution is flawed. If so, what was the rationale for the original point cost table?And if so, whynot just change the point cost of the units? If it is (, then it means not only that the Germans should lose most of the time, but that most of the time the German units should be of inferior quality and numerically inferior.In 1944-45 on the Western Front, the German inferiority in numbers did not apply only to armor, but also to every other arm of combat. Can someone explain exactly what the rationale for this is? Henri

As Jason pointed out, the German tank models after 1941 were not designed in any response to Western tanks, but rather to what the Germans were facing on the Eastern Front. The Soviets were already fielding the T-34 in 1941, and they were produced throughout the war, a total of over 10,000. In response, the Germans designed the Panther which was originally copied on the T34 (Hitler rejected the original design), and the Panther's design kinks had still not been worked out at the Battle of Kursk in 1943. Yes of course the Panther was a better tank than the T34, but it came out two years later and only a couple of thousands were fproduced, and most of those in the last two years of the war. In the meantime, the Soviets were developing heavy tanks -the KV1 was already available in small numbers in 1941. The KV1 was followed by the KV2 and then by the JS series of heavy tanks, which made it clear to the Germans that they needed a heavy tank, which led to the Tiger. So in sum, the Germans were NOT obsessed with heavy tanks: the Panther was a medium tank, and the Tiger was a late response to the Soviet's much earlier fielding of their own heavy tanks. As it turned out, heavy tanks were not all that useful because of their weight, slow speed and slow turret rotation, and the more agile medium tanks (versions of the T34, Panther and Sherman) dominated the battlefield until the end. Henri

In a game agsinst the AI last night, (I won't say which one so as not to give spoilers), I ended up with 3 almost intact platoons of infantry against 3 M8 Greyhounds in a town. I figured that my infantry would be at a serious disadvantage since I had no artillery or vehicles, and only 2 Panzerschrecks, but in a town, the M8s have a hard time getting the upper hand. While 2 of the M8's stayed out of the town, I rushed the third in the town with all 3 platoons, but the M8 managed to back away to the edge of town away from the flag.I kept my men mostly in buildings and approached with the Panzerschrecks; one of them got close but couldn't nail the M8, who hid behind buildings. I didn't want to pursue in strenght because that would mean abandoning the flag to the two other M8's. Finally the M8 decided to cross the town and passed right in front of one of the Panzerschrecks, who plugged him in the rear. One of the other M8's had moved near the other flag which was across a wide field. I brought the 2 Pzschrecks behind a stone wall and fired all my rockets at the M8 from 90 m, but all missed. So I rushed the M8 with two platoons while the other M8 started to approach to support him. Now only close assaults could kill the M8, so I assaulted; finally one squad managed to knock out the M8 with grenades. At the same time, the third M8, who was coming to help, passed close to a house containing one of my squads, who knocked it out with a grenade.Two of the 3 Greyhounds had been killed by infantry using grenades. Against a human player who could better coordinate the 3 M8's. this could be tough, but I think it the infantry is still favored in city fighting against M8's who don't seem too effective at this close range fighting, and whose 37 mm gun is not powerful enough to knock down buildings. However if the M8's had some infantry to help cover them, the opposing infantry would have a tough time. Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: Yes. 400 is 2/3 (66.7%) of 600. That makes 600 33.3% more than 400. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But 50% of 400 is 200, so US gets 200 pts or 50% more than the Germans (half again more).Also 600/400= 1.5 = 100% + 50%, ie. 600 is 150% of 400. Henri

Thanks to all for clearing this up; the question tht had stimulated this on th eCMHQ Chat site was why it was apparently so difficult to stream all the movies together (someone said that it was because of this alleged "on the fly" calculation. In any case, why hasn't anyone ever recorded all the movies from a game on a video recorder using the video output of the video card? One could even record different viewpoints then, using a video editing program, add voiceover comments and even edit the whole tape to make a really nice movie. I would pay money for a CD with movies like that! Henri Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robert Olesen: . Btw, a pbem turn requires 3 mailings, not 4, except at startup. It goes like this: Player 1 gives orders (first turn), then sends Player 2 gives orders, then sends Player 1 watches, then sends Player 2 watches, then gives orders, then sends ...[snip] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, just to make it clear, if Player 2 after this last step above reloads the received file and watches it again, he will see the exact same results every time? Otherwise he could watch the movie, give some orders, then reload the file and watch it again hoping to get better results... Henri

I am getting contradictory opinions about CM movies. On the CMHQ chat forum, some knowledgeable people said that if you replay a movie when playing against the AI, you can get different results, because the results are calculated on the fly during the movie.I was told that this is the reason that a single move in pbem games takes 4 mailings. But on the Usenet war-historical forum, some "experts" say that movies are only movies and that you always get the same result if you replay them. Who is right? Now if the first people are correct, what is to prevent a player who receives a movie from replaying the file until he gets a better result before sending it back?I understand how the 4-mailing thing prevents a player from changing his MOVES after watching the result, but it doesn't prevent the first player who gets the movie from reloading the file and replaying the movie. Clarifications? Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 420: Does anyone know of another site where I can find these scenarios? The scenario depot at CMHQ is not behaving again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Try <http://w1.312.telia.com/~u31213280/index.htm>. They are part of the package of about 200 pbem scenarios. Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Man: Are there any really good PBEM scenarios that r real even? Input appreciated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Try Bridgehead at Benicourt from Wild Bill's web site. There are about 200 pbem scenarios at <http://w1.312.telia.com/~u31213280/index.htm>, including many conversions from Advanced Squad Leader, and some of them are ranked for pbem play. Henri

Nice AAR, but a few of your comments are off the mark just a bit. First, the British had the best-trained soldiers of any army, and they were the ONLY Army in early WW2 that was fully mechanized, which gave them a considerable advantage. Second, although the British/Canadians had as much survival instinct as anyone else, they fully realized that the war was not over in 1944. Although there may have been exceptions, I don't know of any incident where British/Canadians refused stupid orders, and believe you me, there were plenty of them in 1944. Just one example, the famous Canadian Black Watch incident in Normandy where they were ordered to assault entrenched German machinegun positions over a wide expanse of open terrain. Only about 30 men survived, but not a single soldier balked; they marched until they were mowed down, and did not "flag in the fray". There were many other such incidents, although tankfully, few orders of such monumental stupidity... Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mensch: you must have got the men from Liverpool... LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> After investigation, it turns out that my men were from Hollywood; the tank crews were the Keystone Cops, the grenade-throwing squad were the Three Stooges and the Marx Brothers, and the Bazooka crew were laurel and Hardy, who couldn't figure out which end of the bazooka was the business end... Henri

Fifty messages about how good the site is, and not a single one gives the url; have I been missing something? Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Firefly: I'm glad you're posting your AARs here, Henri, my ISP's news server is so screwed up at the moment that I can't read them on war-historical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If anyone sends me a request for an AAR posted anywhere, I'll gladly send them a copy in word format.(the most recent one on war-historical is a TCPIP battle using "Bridgehead at Benicourt). Henri

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mensch: now as far as your Vet PIAT team 20m behind, shooting at the Wespe and missing 7 times, sorry I can't help you there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not to mention the cross-eyed squad of rejects from peewee baseball who stood next to the Wespe for a full minute lobbing grenades at it without effect I bet things like that never happened to Patton and Rommel... Henri

oops, double post... [This message has been edited by Henri (edited 01-15-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead: This points out that the M-8 and other wheeled AC should be vulnerable to immobilization and critical hits from machinegun fire. As it is now mg's do not shoot at the M-8's. All it would take would be a chunk of rubber on the front tire being shot off and then when the M-8 tries to turn. The tire gets torn from the rim. Bingo immobilized.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not necessarily, the M8 is a 6x6 vehicle (6 powered wheels), so one wheel out of commission may slow it a bit, but not immobilize it. There has been a considerable discussion on the M8 last week on another thread, ("How an M8 ruined my day"). Henri

This is an AAR of a Combat Mission TCPIP battle illustrating some interesting tactics. It was a Quick Battle; I let my opponent choose, and he took the map to be a farmland map with small hills. I bought two infantry platoons, two M8 armored cars, a couple on MGs, and a Sherman. The map had a road going straight up the middle with the flag on the left side. I have high respect for the M8, after one of them killed five of my tanks while rampaging through my rear area last week in a TCPIP game … I guessed that the enemy would come down the left side towards the flag, with a light screen possibly covering his left flank. I figured that my opponent would have between one and three tanks, so my plan was to bring up my Sherman slowly on the road in the center behind my infantry, and to race my M8s's along both sides of the map hoping to catch flank shots on his tanks with my M8's and to harass his infantry with the fast-shooting armored cars. The M8 on the left had little probability of flanking anyone, but I hoped I could race him near the enemy lines, nailing some infantry and distracting the enemy who could then be nailed by my Sherman, and I figured that the M8 on the right had a pretty good chance of moving unobstructed all the way across the map, where I would wheel him left behind the enemy lines to hit the enemy armor from behind while they were concentrating on my infantry and Sherman. I had no intention of showing my Sherman before the infantry battle was under way, which was favored by a small hill on the road near the flag area that could conceal the Sherman until it was time to come out. The other main part of my plan was to race my infantry platoons on either side of the road, with the one on the right some distance from the road to avoid being spotted. When the latter platoon came up in line with the flag, they would wheel left and go as far as some trees alongside the road, from where they could fire into the flank of enemy infantry on and behind the flag that were being engaged by my other platoon. As my left-hand platoon was racing toward the flag, the machinegun units fell behind. The platoon reached the clump of trees containing the flag, where it was engaged by forward elements of the Germans, who were also racing for the flag. As the infantry exchanged fire, my M8 on the left raced diagonally across the map, spotting some enemy armor -a Hetzer and a STUGIII! They had been kept well behind the front line, but as the M8 raced between two clumps of trees, one of the German tanks nailed it with a shot to the side. The German tanks then advanced a bit and began to pound my infantry near the flag. In the meantime, the other M8 was deep into the rear of the map, where it spotted and killed a German halftrack that was covering the enemy left flank. Then it kept speeding to its left, crossed the road and went deep behind the enemy position. While all this was happening, my other infantry platoon reached their position and began to fire on the flank of the two US platoons who were giving a hard time to my outnumbered infantry near the flag. The 2 German tanks now spotted the M8 coming up behind them and began to turn to face it; seeing this, the M8 started to look for cover. At this point, I advanced my Sherman onto the small hill with "tophat and lowsky " orders, and before the German STGIII could turn around, the Sherman put a shell into it's tailpipe and killed it, while the Hetzer wheeled around to face the Sherman. The Sherman M4 is no match for the frontal armor of a Hetzer, and as his tank lined up the Sherman, my opponent said "Bye-bye Sherman!…". But I had ordered the Sherman to move in and out of cover, and just as the Hetzer was about to fire, the Sherman backed up out of the line of fire behind the hill. While the Hetzer hesitated about whether or not the Sherman was going to reappear, I ordered the M8 to race right toward the Hetzer, who now began to turn rapidly to face the threat from its rear. The M8 fired furiously and as the Hetzer's side became perpendicular to the line of sight, the M8 immobilized the Hetzer, stimulating a heartfelt expletive from my opponent. Now the turretless Hetzer was as helpless as a floundering fish on the shore, and my M8 put shell after shell into its side until it exploded. But the fight was not over yet: the enemy infantry had overwhelmed my platoon holding the flag despite the fire into its flank from my other platoon. My machineguns had not been able to put effective fire into the enemy before they captured the flag because they were masked by the trees, but now they were pouring fire into the enemy position at the flag. While my M8 was extricating itself from the enemy rear, the enemy infantry underestimated the firepower of 3 MGs 500 meters away supported by the Sherman in the road, and charged the MG positions over the open terrain, intent on silencing the machineguns and on wiping out the remnants of my platoon. They were cut down mercilessly by machinegun fire and the survivors hightailed it back into the trees with heavy casualties. The M8 now headed back to the right toward the road, while nearby enemy units in the rear fired at it. It drove right by a Panzerschreck, who fired at it three or four times, but thanks to its speed, the M8 avoided the shells while ruining the aim of the Panzerschreck with cannon and machinegun fire. The M8 then raced back down the road to a position near the Sherman, and joined the Sherman in pounding the enemy positions around the flag. Seeing that his position had become untenable, the German player now gave up. The key points of my strategy in this game was the perfect timing of the attack on the two German tanks from two different directions, which also required a modicum of luck, given that orders can only be given at one-minute intervals. Had the Hetzer been able to fire at my Sherman a few seconds faster and to kill it, it might have been able to turn faster to face the M8. And even if the M8 had then killed the Hetzer as it did, the Panzerschreck had a good chance of killing the M8. In any case, without the Sherman to back up my infantry, it is not clear whether or not the enemy infantry could have knocked out most of my infantry before the M8 made it back to help, and the M8 could not capture the flag without some help from infantry. The opponent kept his Panzerschreck on his flank to protect against an attack from that direction, but he did not foresee the much deeper penetration that was possible because of the totally free space on the right half of the map. Despite the delay incurred by my infantry platoon to reach its position on the flank of the enemy infantry, which caused the other outnumbered platoon to be almost wiped out by two enemy platoons supported by enemy armor and mortars, it's position on the flank helped to disrupt the enemy infantry by forcing them to fight in a crossfire. In retrospect I should not have taken the flag immediately, but instead placed my infantry in a covering position near the flag at least until the other infantry platoon arrived. The M8 armored car can be a formidable opponent when it is used in a way that exploits its superior speed, fast turret rotation and rapid firing rate; when it manages to get behind enemy armor that is being engaged by friendly armor from the front, it can turn the tide of battle, especially if the enemy units are turretless vehicles that have to turn the hull to engage enemy tanks. Henri