Timskorn

I don't mind long games either. I don't care for stalemates too, but who does? At least it's good to know that SC2 vanilla and WaW both can offer two distinct experiences. It's always a tough line to toe in pleasing both the hardcore (or veteran) audience and gathering new players to the franchise. Starcraft has lasted as long as it has because of the reasons Terif describes for SC2 vanilla, which is extremely hard to achieve for any game.

Wow, what a crazy AAR. Terif, why aren't you in WaW yet? I'm always amazed at how much devastation Terif can bring in such a short period of time. I have yet to play you, but whenever you transition to WaW I would love to receive a sound thrashing just to see this first hand.

Fall 1940: BEF took a beating in Norway. Didn't think they'd be taken out so quickly. BB's managed to cut supplies from Norway to Germany (and Sweden has been pro-Allied for months now) and kill an Axis Corp. sitting on the coastline before pulling back. Last report had an Axis Corp. (destroyed), para, panzer, HQ and 2 air in Norway to face the BEF. The British Corp. in Malta is hanging on for dear life. The rains should be coming soon and save them from destruction. Another city in North Africa is taken by the surging UK forces there. Will the Axis be found further west in Tunisia and Algeria, or will they let the British have their sandbox to play in?

Great job guys and just in time for all the holiday time off. Looks like some AI enhancements were made to protect Germany from a successful D-Day, nice! Also looks like naval screens will actually be effective now in defending against amphib landings. This seems like one of those things that have been a long time coming so definitely a nice surprise. Will this make Sealion an even less viable strategy now as the risks are much higher vs. the reward?

I invest a point or two in amphib for the US because I know I'll be using it a lot.

Waltero, you're actually in Round 3! You're so far ahead, you have to wait for the outcome of The Real Deal vs. Rannug. As soon as one wins, you will be matched up again for the tournament. Plenty of time to get more practice in! If you need it, anyway, hah.

The Real Deal defeats lparkh and advances to Round 2 vs. Rannug.

The RN shell the Norwegian port to cut off supplies to Germany. An Axis Corp. and Para division are moving through the mountains west towards the British in Norway. Our carrier group sorties out to let them know we're here and engage in the skies with the Luftwaffe which has been stationed near Oslo. In Africa, British units surround and crush the Italian defenders at Tobruk and capture it. The Brits are fighting the war all by themselves and keeping the Axis as occupied as possible.

I also think people have created a monster out of Malta. You can take it. It takes time and resources, but you need to plan for it beforehand. Commit to taking it or don't even try because you'll just waste time and resources.

It's more of a "SC2 already abstracts retreat" thing by allowing you to buy back destroyed units at a reduced cost, and is it worth it for Hubert to program this feature into SC2? Most ideas can be implemented into a game, it's more of a matter of "is it worth the developers time?" and "will it make the game much more enjoyable?" Or rather, "How much money will this feature make me?"

There's already plenty of withdrawal opportunities. Either withdrawal the unit yourself by moving them or op-move them. I understand the design concept you're all looking at in regardings to assaulting a single hex, but I think the way SC2 is built it wouldn't work out as great as it sounds, only for limited situations such as assaulting Malta or directing attacking a city from sea. If you look at a withdrawal mechanic in regards to normal land combat, like I said I think it would do more harm than good with SC2's current design and gameplay. Attackers would gain even more advantage, forcing entrenched or defended (ie, units in mountains and forests) into the open to be slaughtered. We all know open, untrenched units are vulnerable to massive casualties in SC2. Watching a strength 5 Army retreat out of Stalingrad and leave it open to the enemy would be infuriating to say the least. I think this falls under the "why can't I attack with 2 or more units at a single time?" design question as well. In future iterations of the SC franchise we might see stuff like this, but in the end you really have to be objective about it and decide how beneficial some of these things would actually be. Seemingly minor design changes could affect how the entire game feels and plays, despite how logical it may sound in theory. I've never played that CEAW game, but the way its designed that retreat mechanic might work just fine with it, but adding it to SC2 may cause unintended consequences.

August 1940: Heavy UK forces hammer Tobruk and are close to routing the Italians there. O'Connor was given the green light for an offensive there as Axis forces throw themselves around in Norway and Tunisia. Off the western coast of France a U-boat is engaged in a small skirmish with a Canadian DD and escapes. This week no U-Boat activity on the shipping lanes. The one the Canadians ran into was low on supplies and was headed back to France to fill'er'up. Still level 1 subs, but we'll see after those guys leave port again. Increased Axis activity spotted on the Russian border. A Panzer division is organizing there. The Russians are preparing for an April/May start to Barbarossa.

Siberians transferring is something that just has to happen. In a global war scenario, that decision would be better left to the player, but in this scope it makes sense to have them arrive. The US Pacific Fleet only arrives if Spain joins the Axis. The North African campaign is a choice left up to the player, and is by no means necessary. If Rommel and Afrika Korp. were thrown into the queue then the player could just use them somewhere else, even if they were directly placed in Africa. Not to mention making an already powerful Axis even more dangerous. Without actually editing the game yourself, the best thing to do is save your MPP's to create Rommel and his Afrika divisions if you plan a campaign in Africa.

Thanks for the update Baron and hope you enjoyed it! I'll move Rannug (as he is listed in the tourny) to round 2, but he won't be matched up with anyone yet until someone else moves on.

Yep, not much more I can add so far. France fell in April 1940. Didn't manage to destroy any units but hurt a good number of them on the way in. This is a key time for the UK. We await the next move by the Axis. Or are we waiting?

I was thinking that a diving sub should lose something in the process, whether it's supply, morale, organization, a strength point or a combination of some.

No, not until Russia enters the war. Some players will build up their forces and try a quick strike on Finland before pulling back to defend Moscow.

Great game guys and loved the AAR. Look forward to playing you next round K Man.

Good game vs. The K Man, Konigs. Great AAR and good fight! K Man, you and I are matched up for the 2nd round so we can begin whenever you're ready. I will take either side, doesn't matter to me so go ahead and pick. My e-mail is Timskorn@gmail.com.

Canuck, you were paired up with AZGungho. You guys never played? Since neither you or Lars has seemed to play your first round opponents, I'll switch the pairings so you two can play. Waltero, congrats! Unfortunately you have outpaced everyone else so there is no one ready you play you at the moment. We need more people from the first round to post their wins. Hopefully they are still playing their games out! If anyone else has finished their first round, please post here so I can update it and check the initial post of this thread to see who you are paired up against. I won my game against Zinfandel so I'll match up with whoever else is ready from the Veterans bracket.

Let's just say I like to add some flair to my reports. Germans had level 5 fighters at the time. They look like Me-262's but I'm sure they had some Me-163's in there too to take down my bombers.

I finished the game last night in July of 1945. The Germans did bring back a good number of units to protect the homeland. A Finnish Army defended Berlin proper supported with AT and armor, but most of the crack German divisions holed up in and around Munich. Without properly defending the Seigfried line though, they could have trucked in double the amount of troops and still got beat down. I think by late 1943 or early 1944, Germany should begin garrisoning the Seigfried line (even if it means giving them a few units! Add a "Hitler Commissions Volkstrum to defend Germany" event). A German engineer also diligently built fortifications in France in preparation for D-Day but not of them had been occupied. Was really cool to see though. German forces tried to help poor Mussolini out. Troops were railed in to protect Sicily, then the southern part of the boot, and finally a single Panzer to help defend outside Rome. German Me-262's and Me-163's tore up the Allied air over the skies of Germany, preventing them from doing much. In the winter of '44 the Russians didn't take long to spring their counter-offensives. One was launched with 10 units out of the Urals, and another with 5 from the south and at Stalingrad. Most of the German forces had pulled back and freezing storms kept Axis air grounded which were quickly overrun and destroyed. It was definitely a nice feeling to go on a real offensive for the first time in Russia! This also showed me that Russia can come back even on the ropes like that. I was still getting around 300 MPP a turn which was plenty to quickly rebuild my shattered military, and this was with barely any MPP help from Britain and only about 7 cities under my control (But including the Caucusus which was critical). After Italy and Germany surrendered however, the game continued with Romania and Bulgaria fighting on, crazy enough. Next up will be checking out the Allied AI!

I've almost completed my first full game against the AI as the Allies and here is a complete rundown of what I experienced and my thoughts. If anyone gives a rats arse. I played on Expert +0. It's currently September 1944. The Russians have been fighting for their lives ever since the Germans crossed the border. Zhukov leads a desperate defense in the Urals, and two pockets of resistance has kept the Russians from being completely wiped out. One has occurred in the city between Moscow and Archangel. An unbelievable defense has bloodied the Germans for nearly three years straight. Communist forces operated hit and run attacks from the dense forests and AA guns have kept heavy Axis air in check. It is on the verge of being captured, but German forces have worn thin there and hope remains. The other pocket, and most importantly, lay at the gates of the Caucusus. There Russian forces dug in and organized a rag-tag army group and sprung a counter-offensive in late 1943 and re-captured Stalingrad. It's been a total bloodbath in Russia though and I'm lucky to have lasted this long. In late June, British forces out of Tunisia staged an invasion of southern Italy and succeeded with minimal losses. With crack artillery, army and armor on land they are forcing their way north through the boot. Two UK fighters lend support but are greatly outclassed by the Luftwaffe which has shut down air sorties. On July 4th, 1944 Allied forces launched D-Day. US and UK paratroopers landed in France first to cut off rail lines, then over 12 units hit the beaches and captured every city except Paris within a month. US bombers leveled German cities and rail lines, hampering reinforcements into France. Finally, the Russians gain some breathing room. After killing half a dozen units in the Urals and combined with simultaneous Allied landings, German forces are pulling back in the east. They have manned the Seigfried line, but not in time. The Allied advances were too swift and were able to swing around the north and invade Germany proper, after quickly liberating Paris and Belgium. German jets have been sent to the homeland to protect their cities and troops from Allied air attack and a desperate fight for the skies has begun. With intense pressure bearing down on both Italy and Germany, the Russians will finally be able to organize themselves and begin retaking their land. Notes: Germany was swift in taking Poland and France, as well as getting into North Africa quickly. Their U-boats caused havoc all the way into 1944, with diminishing results each year as Allied DD's were able to hunt down and damage, if not destroy them outright each successive year. The Axis AI has a great deal of difficulty attacking in Egypt. They have the firepower to do the job but it is not applied properly. Their fighter and tac-bomber did not soften up El-Alamein, and they sent armor, Corp. and Armies at it piecemeal. They also had artillery that was not used against El Alamein. With my armor there, including supporting artillery and air, I was able to easily chew up every unit tossed at El Alamein. Once a few of those key units were destroyed, it was cake cleaning up and heading west. With the unique situation there I feel there almost needs to be special scripts or AI created specifically for this situation, which may not justify the time required to do that. At any rate, this is the only glaring weakness I saw from the AI the entire game, which is pretty damn good to say. When Barbarossa began it was an extremely tough fight every year. I offered a mid-level defense in front of Moscow down the river behind the two southern cities. I was able to hold for quite awhile, but eventually they broke through and flanked, surrounding and destroying a good handful of units in the process. With no rail connection I let three armies get completely obliterated. Hard lesson learned. From there Moscow fell fairly quickly, and that's when I established "the defense to end all defenses" at the city north of there and in the surrounding forests. A lot of German units were killed there, and a lot of their air power remained behind to deal with the defenders. Without that defense I would have lost Russia by now, without a doubt. Same with the defense in the Caucusus, although it didn't see nearly as much action, I could have lost all those resources down there. The Axis AI definitely executes very well in Russia. They find weak spots and exploit them, and know just how to cut you off. If you play on Expert you better bring your A game. It remains to be seen what kind of forces the Germans bring to defend their homeland, but so far it feels a little weak considering the success they've had in Russia and how many units they could spare. Right now a Rocket, Artillery and Army defend the southern part of the Seigfried line. I'm not sure if there is a script yet to determine specific units to garrison on tiles, but this would be useful to trigger whenever x amount of Allied units are detected in France. The entire Seigfried line should be garrisoned at that point in anticipation of Allied advances. Right now the UK and US are the biggest threat to Germany. Even if the front lines in Russia were back around Minsk, the western Allies still become the closest and biggest threat to Germany itself with a successful D-Day. But I'll withold judgment for now. My last turn I captured a German city which may set off a hornets nest. But, if not, Allied air combined with para and ground troops will probably be in Berlin within 2-3 months max and that's without much fighting(compared to the bloodshed in the east anyway). Germans had sent two Panzer divisions at the Allied forces after landing on D-Day, but air and AT units destroyed them within two turns. Overall, the Axis AI is great though. Their forces really exceeded mine in Russia, but I also made some early mistakes. I'd like to play it again and see if I can perform better in Russia. As it is I've barely held on and will still win, unless the western Allies get blasted back to the sea somehow. For a more historical experience in Russia I'd probably lower the difficulty a notch, but that would also mean a sure-fire victory. It's good to know that the AI offers a much greater range for players though. The War in Russia seems to benefit the most from the AI changes and is the most apparent. It's also one of the most crucial fights of the game so it makes sense. It'd be great to see the AI put North Africa in question from time to time and a stronger defense of France/Germany (even if it's just additional air units), but it's not a huge issue, and to be fair this is only my first game vs. the Axis AI. I'd have to run through it a few times on the same settings to get a truly accurate bearing on it. For the WaW additions I feel the two biggest changes have come with subs and rail lines. Rail movement greatly changes the dynamics of ground warfare and really make para’s important. As Russia in particular, you really need to know your exit strategy from every defensive position and know when to pull back tactically so your forces don't get surrounded and completely destroyed. One cut-off rail line can imperil multiple units and risk their complete destruction from the game. Subs are now a factor in every game. They will hurt you, but it's just a matter of time and resources before they are sent either to the bottom of the ocean or limping back to port. I've found AA guns invaluable in Russia, but they need tech which combined is a risky investment. At level 3 they can really hurt air units and help protect your valuable forces, but they are vulnerable and you can waste a lot of MPP's on them. AT guns have, so far, seem to be the least used new unit. They are very effective at what they do, but putting them in the right position at the right time can be difficult as they are vulnerable to infantry. Having motorization for these guys is very important. Special Forces are a nice unit to have as their offensive punch can really be felt, but I haven’t taken advantage of their ability to amphib off of any coastline. All the new units are useful though and add not only new functions but more strategic options. With all the viable tech paths, new units, upgrades and diplomacy the game requires you to plan and think a little more on how, when and where to spend those precious MPP’s and that makes for a much more re-playable and entertaining experience. Hubert’s game has come a long way since the original, pre-patched version of SC1 and right now it stands as a real classic. Until, of course, he releases an even better version.

Summer 1944: The Allies have surrendered. The war in Europe is over. The Russians were pinned in their last city with Axis forces chewing up every new division put in combat against them. The Russian military offered a front-line defense during Barbarossa and suffered the consequences, with many units destroyed and/or cut off. When the Siberians arrived, they were immediately put into the offensive during the summer of 1942 and stalled the Axis advance in the south, but German air was able to decimate the advancing armies as they were caught in the open. The Russian military was never able to recover, nor muster enough troops to make a stand for very long. Axis subs sank over 20 Allied ships by 1944, where US and UK DD's with tech finally put an end to their terror. By then they had taken a devastating toll on the British ability to fight, and no second front was opened until 1943 when Russia was already on the ropes. Subs can be absolutely devastating, but they CAN be countered with even a little ASW tech. Very important for the British to get at least 1 ASW tech early on. With success in Russia, Germany had the extra MPP to put up flak batteries throughout France and Germany and even commission some AA units to protect vulernable areas, further hampering the only pressure the Allies could put on the Axis from the west. I threw the kitchen sink at him in Africa and it paid off, but I also got lucky there too. I was hardly affected by sandstorms and Malta and was able to put my air units to quick use in dislodging the British from El Alamein, effectively opening the door to Alexandria. Having Italian artillery down there helped a lot to, and by the time Runstedt captured Alexandria they had nearly 5 bars of experience. Certainly a good early investment for the Italians to support the Germans there. On a side note, by the end of the game I had an extremely decorated Army. The 13th Army had two pages of honors and 5 bars of experience. They had the campaigns of Poland, France and Egypt under their belt. Cities of Rostov, Minsk, Paris and Alexandria and the rest were destroyed units, mostly from fighting in Russia. They were eventually placed in Paris in anticipation for a western invasion (and some deserved rest!), and racked up another couple kills there. Definitely fun to look through the honors of units like that, especially towards the end of a game. A fun game with definitely some lessons learned, and some new ideas generated for the new mechanics and units in WaW.

Thanks a lot for the in-depth look at your AI Hubert. It makes sense to give the AI garrison units and it isn't an overt "cheat", but rather seems a more efficient way to streamline the way the AI uses its forces. AI is difficult to do, and many games (particularly RTS) just pile on more cheats to make the AI more difficult. You have to, at some point, give the AI advantages but the frustration comes in when it's completely obvious they are getting huge bonuses. You've seem to have done an excellent setup so far in giving a challenging AI without beating us over the head with cheats. And this is without me giving the AI any Exp. modifiers! Very impressed and hope to see some reviewers actually take notice, although now they'll probably complain for getting obliterated.