Timskorn

Thanks a lot for the in-depth look at your AI Hubert. It makes sense to give the AI garrison units and it isn't an overt "cheat", but rather seems a more efficient way to streamline the way the AI uses its forces. AI is difficult to do, and many games (particularly RTS) just pile on more cheats to make the AI more difficult. You have to, at some point, give the AI advantages but the frustration comes in when it's completely obvious they are getting huge bonuses. You've seem to have done an excellent setup so far in giving a challenging AI without beating us over the head with cheats. And this is without me giving the AI any Exp. modifiers! Very impressed and hope to see some reviewers actually take notice, although now they'll probably complain for getting obliterated.

The AI also LOVES to try and steal cities and resources. This is more of an annoyance than anything, and can cause units to easily get cut off. For example, the Germans were driving east and a Panzer went AROUND Rostov and then south to grab the Maikop oil field. He ended up at least 10 tiles away from his other units. Needless to say I ended up destroying him at supply level 0. Another example, I had an Army on the city just northeast of Stalingrad for many turns while they assault Stalingrad. I move him away one tile, and suddenly a strength 6 German army appears to try and take the city. It certainly makes a Russian player defend cities he normally wouldn't, but in the end I think it evens out because the Russian player can completly cut off and obliterate expensive units. Plus it's not terribly historical and is probably the most glaring AI "gamey" element I've seen.

The AI also LOVES to try and steal cities and resources. This is more of an annoyance than anything, and can cause units to easily get cut off. For example, the Germans were driving east and a Panzer went AROUND Rostov and then south to grab the Maikop oil field. He ended up at least 10 tiles away from his other units. Needless to say I ended up destroying him at supply level 0. Another example, I had an Army on the city just northeast of Stalingrad for many turns while they assault Stalingrad. I move him away one tile, and suddenly a strength 6 German army appears to try and take the city. It certainly makes a Russian player defend cities he normally wouldn't, but in the end I think it evens out because the Russian player can completly cut off and obliterate expensive units. Plus it's not terribly historical and is probably the most glaring AI "gamey" element I've seen.

Nice to hear, I haven't played as Axis yet vs. AI. Currently playing as Allies, Expert +0. It's October, 1942 and the Germans have already advanced to Stalingrad and Gorky. I've finally been able to slow them down. It's clear the Axis AI gets considerable early-game units via script, and I believe Hubert mentioned this as well. It's allowed them to be competent on all fronts (AF to defend against bombing raids in France, units for North Africa and a huge force for Barbarossa (At least 5 armor + numerous ground and air units). I still see mistakes with the AI, such as armor double-striking an entrenched AT unit even after taking considerable losses during the first strike, and the AI still can't seem to handle North Africa very well (Ie, softening up El Alamein with air before attacking with ground). He sends a unit or two at a time at the fortification, and with the British armor, artillery and air supporting, I could blast every unit that came up. They retreated fine, except for leaving Rommel all alone in the city west of Tobruk. Having the increased early units for the Axis AI has certainly helped a lot though, and the AI definitely finds weak spots better, attacking vulnerable units with air and ground. This in itself goes a long way in allowing the AI to actually finish off units, as before there was too many times they'd hurt a unit but not destroy it when they could have. So far so good though and it's a lot of fun, looking forward to seeing how the rest of this game plays out and how playing the Allied AI is. [ December 01, 2007, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Timskorn ]

Nice to hear, I haven't played as Axis yet vs. AI. Currently playing as Allies, Expert +0. It's October, 1942 and the Germans have already advanced to Stalingrad and Gorky. I've finally been able to slow them down. It's clear the Axis AI gets considerable early-game units via script, and I believe Hubert mentioned this as well. It's allowed them to be competent on all fronts (AF to defend against bombing raids in France, units for North Africa and a huge force for Barbarossa (At least 5 armor + numerous ground and air units). I still see mistakes with the AI, such as armor double-striking an entrenched AT unit even after taking considerable losses during the first strike, and the AI still can't seem to handle North Africa very well (Ie, softening up El Alamein with air before attacking with ground). He sends a unit or two at a time at the fortification, and with the British armor, artillery and air supporting, I could blast every unit that came up. They retreated fine, except for leaving Rommel all alone in the city west of Tobruk. Having the increased early units for the Axis AI has certainly helped a lot though, and the AI definitely finds weak spots better, attacking vulnerable units with air and ground. This in itself goes a long way in allowing the AI to actually finish off units, as before there was too many times they'd hurt a unit but not destroy it when they could have. So far so good though and it's a lot of fun, looking forward to seeing how the rest of this game plays out and how playing the Allied AI is. [ December 01, 2007, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Timskorn ]

I think HC's talents and business model (Ie, making money!!) is probably better for all of us if he moves onto SC3 or whatever it'll be called. One of us blokes needs to put that fully functional editor to good use and make the Pacific Mod ourselves...that's what it's there for, anyway!

Beautious. And I have to say, compared to SC1 and SC2's release, WaW was relatively bug free out of the gate and balanced well. Great job Hubert, and the testers who I'm sure helped immensley!

I've found that pooling your initial units in defensive positions near Moscow, and a smaller delaying force south near Kharkov and the mines is a better strategy than front-line defense. The Russians have the advantage of full supply lines. The deeper the Germans go, the more vulnerable they become. Allowing them to grab a few early cities without much of a fight (sometimes I leave a Corp. in Minsk and Rostov for delay), might not seem smart, but it's OK to give up ground in Russia. You have a lot of it. When the Russian winter hits, that's when you strike. This is the best time to hit the Germans. They lose strength and supply and their deadly air is grounded. Stretch their lines, cut them off where you can and take advantage of Russia's winter. You need to delay the Germans as much as possible and sap as much MPP's from them as you can until your US and UK buddies can start doing enough damage to divert Axis forces away from Russia.

September 1943: The Russian front has collapsed. Axis troops stormed Stalingrad and cut off the rail lines to the Caucusus, leaving it completely undefended. The last bastion of the Soviets lay in the formidable Ural mountains. Meanwhile, the Allies have opened up a front in France and temporarily crippled the U-Boat fleet. A skirmish occurred on the western coast of France as US transports were caught by a U-Boat returning to port for supplies. After sinking one and damaging another, the Allied fleet bore down and nearly destroyed a sub while the Gneisau joined in and hammered a couple ships. Brest was eventually captured and US and UK forces are moving inward. An AA unit defends Caen and General Model was tasked with the defense of Bordeaux to the south, even though he and his forces risk complete isolation. JG 26 and 3 Corps. seasoned from Russian fighting were called in to defend the city to give time to other Axis units to prepare defenses around Paris, and possibly a counter-attack through the coming winter while Allied air sits grounded. It remains to be seen what the Allies have to offer from here on out. It's been a long while since I've seen fresh Russian units. Axis forces have been fighting scrounged up units for the most part and have not seen armored units for nearly two years. The Urals may become a desperate defensive situation for them. Besides for Allied air, UK and US forces have been absent as well. No invasions of Norway or North Africa, so it's possible Western France may become flooded with Allied troops soon.

The best thing an AI can do is give off the illusion that it's thinking and reacting to you. I've definitely played some games that have certainly made me feel I was fighting an intelligent opponent, despite a few quirks here and there. But that's typically in very defined, linear situations.

AI programming isn't some magical feat of creating a sentient AI capable of reacting to human actions. It's just code put in by a human. From my time with editing and AI work it's clear that the "intelligence" you see is only human scripts compensating for the most likely player actions within the framework of a specific scenario. Hubert's generic offensive/defensive AI code may have been completely thrown out of whack based on the situation you created, who knows? You should try developing AI sometime. There is rarely anything simple about it. I did it professionally for RTS games and it took months to do a single scenario, and that's before it went through various human testing that found umpteen loopholes in the AI.

Doubtful, but it'd be cool if subs could keep track of how many MPP's they've sank.

Yes, and try not to think of "winning" those kinds of scenarios as "domination", but rather how much better can you do than the Axis did historically. Some of my most entertaining games was recognizing the point at which I've failed in "winning by domination", then switching my game style to survival.

May 1943: The German army continues to advance on all fronts in Russia. Gorky and Rostov have fallen, but not without a fight. The German 3rd Army was cut off and annihilated in combat outside Rostov, and many other units sustained a lot of casualties. The Russians still hold onto Smolensk, but with Rostov and Gorky captured, they are now vulnerable to assault from three sides. Finnish troops are assaulting Archangel (sp?) in an effort to cut off Allied supply shipments for good, although German U-Boats have been doing that job for awhile now. In Europe, Allied bombing continues its effort to level German production facilities in France. However, Germany has not only fortified its cities with 88's, but has garrisoned them with specialized AA units that combined have taken a costly toll on Allied bombing. In the Atlantic, U-Boats continue their campaign of terror on the high seas. U-29 was ambushed and sunk off the coast of Nova Scotia by a formidable Allied fleet of upgraded Destroyer's. The balance of the Atlantic is now swinging back towards the Allies. However, U-31 off the eastern US seaboard caught an American DD napping and sunk it to the bottom. In over three years of sub warfare, the U-Boats have exacted a deadly toll on the Allies. 18 ships including one transport have been reported sunk by the wolf packs, on top of the hundreds of tonnes of shipping that has been destroyed. Axis forces know the Western Allies haven't been idle though, and expect an attack soon to take off the pressure on the Russian front. Hopefully Axis intelligence will tip us off to where and when that attack will happen...

Feature Request: Allow AA units to fire on aircraft that pass over their range of fire. Allow players to draw waypoints for fighter and bomber sorties to avoid flying over AA. This would really make longer-range aircraft more valuable, as Allied bombers could take the long road to avoid flak batteries. This would also allow players to place AA guns along strategic paths, and not necessary right on or near a city/resource (Which already can be upgraded with AA).

I'm glad to see Hubert applying small changes. I still think it's fairly early to be making any drastic decisions. I think most of us can agree that subs are much more viable now. I'd also say that a change in naval tactics and focusing on getting at least ASW 1 helps even the odds against them as the Allies. In my current game, my opponent has moved a lot of his non-DD ships alone through the Atlantic, or kept them at sea too long and were low on supply. In either case, running into one of my subs became a rather nasty experience for him. In SC2 the Allied player could get away with throwing ships around early. Now you need to travel in groups, or not at all. If you don't want those BB's and CA's sunk in a surprise encounter, lead with your DD's first and keep them screening the others as much as possible.

September '42: Russian lines have been hammered and driven back. From Moscow down to Rostov, the commies are on the run. Moscow, Leningrad and Kharkov have been captured. Stalwart Russian defenders hold onto the mines south of Kharkov, but Italian and German forces have surrounded and cut them off and issue them orders for immediate surrender. Partisans, nay fanatics who are disillusioned by their old regime, seem to have coordinated a world-wide uprising. Russian militias have sprung up in the rear lines, Yugoslav partisans are harassing Axis troops out of the mountains, Arab nationalists have rendered Alexandria and her port inoperable and the French continue to sabotage ports on the Western coast. The Atlantic saw some more fighting, but the US has been unable to cripple the U-Boat threat. Any non-destroyer that runs into a sub out there is immediately sunk to the bottom. A recent clash has damaged the U-Boat fleet, giving the UK a bit of a respite, but a new wolf pack is harassing the shipping lanes to Russia while the rest re-fit and re-organize. Allied air is strong in the UK now, but Germany has been diligently preparing her cities and ports with batteries of 88's. The Allies will take a toll in their quest to level German production and manufacturing. As winter approaches, a respite in the east is sure to come as both sides recover from a year of bloody battles. Model is urging to continue offensive operations through the winter, even if it means stretching the lines...

Absolutely. I've played a'many FPS's, and this one really got everything right. Last thing, as I don't want to hi-jack this therad, but if you're on Xbox Live, my gamertag is Lincolns Mullet.

My father is 56 and he plays Call of Duty 4 for hours on end. Gaming is a great past-time.

It seemed he lost a good chunk of the RN in skirmishes off of western France earlier. I had subs and the Kriegsmarine in the vicinity and was able to hit and run with the subs, then bring in the cruisers to mop up. U-Boats sunk around 100 MPP's worth of shipping last turn, but ran into a US DD tech 1. Sub still alive at strength 6, but you can tell the difference one level of ASW tech can do. Plus, if you manage to hit the U-Boats when they are low on supply the odds can even out a little more.

Summer 42: The offensives in Russia are slow going. Siberians arrived awhile ago and were immediately put to use. Russians are fighting inch by inch. Moscow is within grasp soon but in the south mostly Italian, Romanian and Bulgarian troops are taking the brunt of a commie offensive backed by tac and fighters. Thankfully for clear skies and air support, the Luftwaffe is able to punch any advances in the mouth. Leningrad continues to get bombed and hammered from sea. Russian forces attempt to relieve the siege but are bogged down in the marshes. Leningrad should be on schedule to fall by winter. In the Atlantic, there is nothing to contest the U-Boat menace. At tech level 3, experience and numbers on their side, the Allies have a long and patient road to climb before they'll be able to keep them in check. In the meantime, the UK gasps for air... The plan for the Middle-East has been decided upon and the disposition of Runstedt's forces is now confidential information.

Started my first game as Allies on Expert +0 Exp. I was able to hold France until August, 1940 with the help of the BEF and desperate air and naval support. I also got the leg up on the U-Boat war early, getting ASW 3 by 1941 and cracking them in half wherever I found 'em. That in particular gave me hope that the U-Boat war CAN be fought and won by the Allies. As the Axis in another game, U-Boats have become wrecking balls. It's June 1941 and Barbarossa is probably about to kick off, so this will be the first true test of the AI I think.

You and I both know that games like this don't always follow the "historical norm", because we tinkering fools think we can figure out ways to win differently! Plus, naval combat isn't anywhere close to historical. You have to design features to fit within the scope of the game.

Yeah, they wouldn't want to go in blind and...lose.

Lars: Think of my suggestion as a sort of rock/paper/scissors. "Attack Carrier" stance would only automatically have your carrier attack another enemy carrier the moment it gets into range (on your opponents turn). "Attack Any" stance has it strike the first enemy ship that comes in range (on your opponents turn). "CAP" keeps the fighters prepared for any enemy carrier attacks in the vicinity of your carrier. The strategy here is determining how you want your carriers to act in certain situations. If you have 3-4 carriers together, you can mix and match stances. If you only have 1 carrier with a couple cruisers nearby, you probably want to set it to CAP to protect them all from fighter attack. If you had the carrier set to "Attack Any", your opponent could lure your carrier to strike out first, grounding its fighters and allowing him to strike you without worrying about fighter defense. Had you kept it on "CAP", your enemy would be forced to tangle with your fighters in order to strike any of your ships. Setting "Attack Any" and "Attack Carrier" would be a risky, aggressive stance best used when you believe you have superior strength. It allows your carriers to strike twice (once on their turn, once on your turn like how artillery works now), but can leave your ships without fighter cover.