Sgt Joch

2nd vote here for CIMIC HOUSE.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/german-prosecutors-zero-in-on-ss-massacre-in-oradour-sur-glane-a-959577.html Germany is planning to prosecute the last remaining suspected war criminals before they die. Very interesting article by Spiegel. It does raise an interesting question though, after 70 years, can Werner Christukat get a fair trial?

If you guys don't want Decals, I can suggest we remove them.

Russia has been re-directing its oil/gas exports towards Asia to be less dependent on European customers and any EU sanctions. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/draft-strategy-sees-russias-oil-and-gas-flow-to-asia-doubling/493331.html China will buy up everything Russia has to offer and as a bonus, won't interfere in whatever Russia does. Perhaps a bit cynical, but an interesting analysis on why Russian elites are not worried about any freezing ot their assets: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html?hp=f2 Talk is cheap, what is the US and EU really willing to do?

You give me way too much credit, even I can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

I blame Childress.

There is nothing you raised which has not been looked at, analysed and considered many times before. If you actually had an original thought on the issue, we could have an intelligent discussion. As it is, all I see is the same kneejerk anti-americanism and superficial understanding of the issues which I have seen way too many times. It's quite boring actually.

This all started because you said the U.S. military committed " many atrocities in Iraq". The issue of war crimes as always been a sore topic around here, since you always have posters with neo-Nazi tendencies trying to show the Allies committed as many serious war crimes as the Aliies in WW2. Anyway this discussion is pointless (as is this whole thread IMHO), no one is going to change his mind.

Let's face it, everybody kills less civilians than the Russians do. BTW did I mention the Russians used poison gas against civilians in Afghanistan? We can start talking about Chechnya also if you wish, what is it? 200,000 civilians killed in the past 20 years? There's a hotbed of democracy.

Unlike the Russians who did such a great job in Afghanistan, totally destabilising the country so that it was taken over by Bin Laden and Al Qaida. BTW did I mention the systemic carpet bombing of Afghan villages that was carried out by the Russian Air force? At least Iraq is now a semi-functioning democracy. What was the Russian plan in Afghanistan? Ah yes, imposing a Dictatorship. There is an old saying that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Man, I have to admit this is pretty bad: -1984, the entire population of Kaz-Aziz-Kham: 72 men, women and children were rounded up and executed. (pp. 44-45) -march 11-18, 1985, up to 1,000 civilians were killed in reprisal operations against 12 villages in the Langham district. Apparently, many children were locked up in houses and burned to death. (pp. 46-47) http://afghanistanjusticeproject.org/warcrimesandcrimesagainsthumanity19782001.pdf

On Iraq, by most accounts, US/UK forces were directly responsible for the deaths of 10-15,000 civilians. Of course, they were not deliberately targeting civilians and were in fact trying to minimise civilian casualties as much as possible. However, in the circumstances of the conflict, where it was hard to distinguish the combatants from the civilians, it is difficult to see how the civilian casualties could have been substantially lower. You can contrast that with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979-89 where an estimated 850,000-1,500,000 civilians died or almost 100 times as many. However, the Russians were deliberately targeting civilians, massacring large numbers, destroying entire villages and causing many, many, many "atrocities". That is the difference between the " good guys" and the " bad guys".

I never thought I would say this, but Vanir is absolutely right...for once.

Agreed, most qualify as war crimes, but they were all isolated incidents and the perpretators were prosecuted and punished. However, they were not in any way "atrocities" like, for example, the deliberate killing of 2,500,000 Soviet soldiers in 1941-42 by the Germans. Anyone who looks at the record objectively will see that US/UK forces in Iraq carried out their mission very professionally with minimal civilian causalties compared to most wars.

For some reason, I thought you would post that one. What the video does not show is that U.S. soldiers from the 2-16 had been pinned down just 100 meters from there most of the morning by gunfire, probably coming from the first group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike An unfortunate incident to be sure, but well within the rules of engagement.

You stilll did not enlighten us on what "atrocities" you think coaliton forces committed.

yes, surprised to hear about the "many atrocities" and the "destabilization of the region" myself. Please enlighten us. BTW, Hussein killed more of his own people in the spring of 1991 alone than died in the entire 2003-2011 period and 85-90% of the Iraqi civilians who died in 2003-2011 were killed by other Iraqis.

Just started playing this one over the weekend, only a few minutes in, but wanted to say this looks like a classic, great map, interesting mission, lots of atmosphere.

Remember you have AT, AP and mixed mines, so the fact that AFVs went through safely does not mean infantry is safe and vice versa.

I only play WEGO and do not often use the LOS tool as is, I use it more regularly for testing. I usually stay at level 1 and use the mousewheel to just peek over my AFV/troops. The 3D is accurate enough that you can easily estimate LOS/LOF without any tools.

I believe the Chinese claim 35 million civilian victims while most western historian peg the number of chinese civilians who died as a result of Japanese aggression at around 20 million. Either way, yes, the scale of atrocities committed by the Japanese in Asia is as monstrous as what the Nazis did in Europe. However, unlike the Germans, the Japanese have never really faced up to their past or apologised for their actions.

agreed, but again, the western allies did hold themselves to a higher standard. Everything they did was either accepted warfare at the time (i.e. unrestricted submarine warfare, strategic bombing of civilians) or much milder than anything the Germans/Japanese ever did (i.e. shooting of prisoners). The only reason posters keep harping on the strategic bombing of Germany and Japan is that it is really the only questionable moral action and then only if you use 2014 standards. What many people seem to forget is that the Germans and Japanese started the trend. The Germans bombed Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Belgrade, Moscow, Leningrad, etc., etc. The Western Allies were just better at it.

you guys all seem to forget it was not the US, UK, Canada, USSR et.al. that started the war, it was the Germans and Japanese and they then refused to give up until their countries were torched. As the old saying goes, "you reap what you sow".

Well if you look at 1944, the average Soviet inf. unit would probably be 1/3-1/2 Regulars and 1/2-2/3 Green. The average German inf. unit would probably be 1/2-2/3 regulars and 1/3-1/2 Green. Infantry training had pretty much the same standard by then and most units had about the same proportion of kids fresh from basic training. The advantage the Germans had was more in leadership, i.e. greater number of qualified, experienced NCOs and junior officers. So more +1/+2 leadership modifiers for the Germans, more -1/-2 for the Soviets.

Are there actual verified figures? When I was researching the 1930s "Purges" a few year's back, all I could find were estimates, since it seemed most official records had serious gaps. Best estimate I saw were around 1,000,000 who were "Purged", 500,000 who were executed and another 500,000 sent to prison.