aka_tom_w

well if you consider the summer/fall of 2005 just around the corner then I guess you are correct. (thats Dec 2002 + 2.5 years = summer 2005) -tom w

Excellent! (Burns to Smithers! ) http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000492 Thanks Gillfish! that was a Very GOOD thread with usefull info in it for sure! (Did you remember it or did you do a search?) -tom w

bump?

Can anyone here direct me to a good tutorial about how to use smoke the best and most effecient way in Combat Mission? I have never been a really big fan of the use of smoke, but my opponents sometimes use it on me and I wonder if it works or if it is just a large waste of ammo? I know this thread is not about the tactical use of smoke in CMBO but I wonder if someone could direct me to a web page or thread about the BEST tactical use of smoke in CMBO. Thanks -tom w

interesting thread worthy of a bump because I don't have anything intelligent or constructive to add to it other than general agreement that I would like to see more effort and development for a better AI thanks -tom w

Thanks for all your insight and posts Bruce. Very welcome and refreshing! I have enjoyed reading about your knowledge and experience in this area thanks -tom w

:eek: Reduce the height and you'll reduce the hit chance considerably! It should rather be: Hull exposed 65%, Hull down 20%. (Stationary target and gun, first shot.) The reason is that sideways is no sweat to aim, as long as there are no strong winds. Up-Down is where the range estimation plays a valid part, and make up for most of the error in aim. Cheers Olle</font>

more about the book and the author here: http://www.fourtharmored.com/firstintobastogne.htm " A veteran of the Battle of the Bulge tells the story of the 4th Armored Division's Combat Command B and the relief of the encircled city. By Brig. Gen. Albin F. Irzyk, U.S. Army (ret.) Just before dark on the day after Christmas 1944, elementsof Lieutenant General George S. Patton, Jr.'s 4th Armored Division, attacking from the south, succeeded in making contact with the beleaguered Americans at Bastogne. The encircled 101st Airborne Division had occupied that critically vital Belgian town for several days, categorically refusing German demands for surrender. The dramatic linkup of the two forces broke the siege of Bastogne and was one of the great turning points in the Battle of the Bulge. This legendary event has often been described in histories of World War II, but there is a fascinating subplot to the story that is little-known. It took the 4th Armored Division five days of bitter, costly fighting to break the ring of German units encircling the 101st, but only six days before the linkup, elements of that same division had actually been in Bastogne on the day it was being encircled. In fact, during that earlier movement into the town, those forces had come within one kilometer of the same spot to which they would return six days later, after heavy fighting. How could this have happened? " -tom w

found this review on the internet: ""He Rode Up Front For Patton is the intimate and true story of a young tank commander whose own tanks were often the lead elements of General Patton's famed Third Army. This autobiographical account describes the detailed adventures of how American men lived and worked in their tanks during the arduous push from England, across Europe to Czechoslovakia. Irzyk's intuitive glimpses into the lives of the men around him provide an insightful portrayal of the daily struggles they faced. He Rode Up Front For Patton is a personalized chronicle about the constant fight to wrest ground and defeat the Germans while endeavoring to spare the men he had the honor to lead unnecessary hardships and useless losses during one of the most momentous times of World War II. It provides a rare, unique, first hand account of life during combat, culminating in Irzyk's final and unprecedented encounter with General Patton. He Rode Up Front For Patton is a terrific insider's account of the horrors and heroics and mechanized combat in the European theatre. No World War II collection is complete without He Rode Up Front For Patton. " " Sounds like a GREAT book thanks for bringing it to our attention -tom w

Great Thread! Thanks to all who posted. I have been away for a few days so I'm thrilled to come back and read about how the importance of GOOD gunnery optics (on EITHER side) have been modeled and incorporated into the game. thanks for the AAR's and the GREAT review and Pics of the event. This MUST be the BEST pre release publicity BFC could ask for! Great work! -tom w

OK call me crazy here BUT the Tank Sim Panzer Elite highlites this very dramatically. (ok, ok its ONLY a Game) Looking throught the gunnery sights of a German tank and trying to spot and HIT a Sherman's turret when it just pops up on the horizon at about a KM out is REALLY tricky. The AI in Panzer Elite will get those enemy Sherms in Hull down positions EVERY time, (the AI will creep those sherms up so that just there turrets are visible at every possible opportunity) and they REALLY have an advantage if your own tank is NOT hull down.I think getting your own (and your wingman's) tank hull down in PE is HARDER than in CMBO (That's mostly because I lack practice in Panzer Elite). Can anyone here say that hull down is not the most desireable position? As a WWII tank sim (the only one) I have a lot of respect for Panzer Elite. If you haven't played it why not try it out while waiting for CMBB? And just for fun choose the position of gunner and (using full REALISM gunnery settings) just try to hit ANYTHING at any distance with AP while moving, slow or fast it is virtually impossible. Hull down is the way to go. Creep up that hill, pop your turret over the top, stop the vechicle, AIM, take AIM again, and fire, then adjust or range, and fire again. Realistic determination of the accurate range before you fire the first shot is tricky and requires a great deal of skill and practice. But it is most certianly easier with the German optics. Accurate Range determination is CRITICAL to first shot hit accuracy. Anyway you want to be Hull Down for sure before you open fire. -tom w

How about this: from this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=025064 Thermopylae Member Member # 3395 posted June 07, 2002 07:11 PM One Primer, Soon to be sent somewhere... My First Burning Sherman, a CM primer. Contents 1.The Really Basic Stuff 1.1 The CM Camera 1.2 Selecting Units & Issuing Orders 1.3 Movement Orders and Waypoints 1.4 Targeting Orders 1.5 The LOS tool 1.6 Hiding 1.7 Ambush 2. HQ Concepts 2.1 Command Radius and Platoon Leaders 2.2 Command Delay 2.3 Command Bonus 2.4 Higher HQs 3. Indirect Fire 3.1 Forward Observers and off map Arty 3.2 On Board Mortars Chapter 1: The Really Basic Stuff 1.1 The CM Camera First and foremost, CM involves a 3D battlefield. This often makes for an initially confusing experience, as you whip around a lot and tend to lose track of things, but is quickly overcome. Controlling the camera is relatively simple. Merely place the cursor at the top of the screen as if you were scrolling to go forward, bottom of the screen to reverse, and left or right to turn the camera that direction. Alternatively, the arrow keys may be used with the arrows all performing the same function as placing the mouse on that portion of the screen. ( Up goes forward, left turns left, etc.) Next, there are several different camera angles the player can work from, being numbered 1-8. You may switch to a view at any time by pressing the appropriate number. The first four views are complete 3D views, as follows: 1. Ground Level: The camera is kept skimming just off the ground, about the height of a soldier’s head. This is useful for plotting sneaky movements along depressions and watching replays, but easily becomes thoroughly confusing. I recommend staying away from it during the orders phase. 2. Not Quite Ground Level: To be honest, this is the least useful view in CM. It angles the camera downward, but remains fairly zoomed in, and as such you can’t see much beyond the immediate area. Makes for some cool screenshots though. (Which, by the way, can be taken w/ alt + print screen) 3. Local Command View: This is the equivalent of having the camera hovering in a church steeple above the ground. It is useful for judging elevation, lines of sight and so forth, and is essentially the view from which to micromanage. Usually this view can be used to command a platoon or two, or individual tanks, without any difficulty. 4. Command View: If you are ever confused by what the camera is doing, hit 4, center the cursor, and rotate until you see a friendly unit or particular landmark. This view lets you examine the entire battlefield in 3D, and is thus the most important one in the game. Views 5-8 are top down maps of various zoom levels. Not particularly useful compared to View 4, but they do have their moments. Note: Shift C can be used to increase the image size of your units, making finding them easier. Shift B toggles unit bases on or off, providing large squares of color to highlight units. 1.2 Selecting Units and Issuing Orders To select a unit, place he cursor over it and left click. You can then either ENTER to view the unit’s vital statistics, TAB to center the view behind the unit, or an orders hotkey to, well, give an order. To select a group of units, drag a box around them, or double click their HQ (see HQ concepts) To give orders to a unit, right click on it. For a group, right click one unit of the selected group. Upon your click, a list of orders will appear, as well as an orders line (a colored line with a white box at the end) what you do with this depends on the order. Either way, you move the orders line as you would the mouse cursor. 1.3 Movement Orders Once you have selected a unit to give orders to, as mentioned above, select a movement command (see list at end of this numeral). You will now have an orders line with a white box at the end of it. This white box represents where you will tell your unit to move upon left clicking, the orders line represents the path they’ll take. Often enough, however, you will not want your units to move in a straight line to a destination. To create waypoints in a movement path, drag the orders line to the designated waypoint and right click. You will now have locked that waypoint in, and will have a new orders line originating from that point. On the final leg, left click to seal the orders. Note: Group orders cannot be waypointed. They also just replicate an order for the entire formation. Thus, run 250m at 27 degrees to that building becomes run forward 250m at 27 degrees to all units in the group. Movement Orders (Infantry) Run: Men run forward without stopping until they reach their destination, are all killed, or more likely, become damn fed up with being shot. They will fire at targets of opportunity. Some units, like MGs, cannot run. Move: Men walk forward as per conditions of run. Less fatiguing. Sneak: Unit treads forward stealthily (less likely to be spotted, won’t commence fire while moving) and will stop and return fire if fired upon. Typically they’ll find cover as well. (This is sort like a "Movement to Contact" order, use this if you want to advance and have your infantry STOP and return fire when fired upon, in the case of Move and FAST they keep moving forward no matter what while under fire, I suggest you use SNEAK all the time when there "might" be an enemy contact in your path!) Crawl: Units crawl forward with a low tolerance for incoming fire. Best used behind walls/hedges. Will not fire while moving. Very stealthy, very slow. Withdraw: Unit runs away as fast as possible with no command delay. (See HQ concepts) can only be used towards friendly map edge, and risks severe morale penalties. Halt: Cancels all movement orders. Vehicles: Move: Universal walking pace. Fast: Vehicle zips at top speed towards destination. Hunt: Unit moves forward at a medium pace, and will stop to engage any vehicle sit spots. Reverse: Vehicle will move backwards to destination at a medium-fast speed. 1.4 Targeting Orders There are two basic targeting orders in the menu. The first is the simple TARGET command. Upon clicking this, an order line will appear for you to drag to either a target unit or terrain feature. If you highlight an enemy unit, a small data readout on your firepower and their exposure will be shown for infantry targets, or a hit chance/kill chance if you target a hard vehicle with a non-small arms weapons. Small arms versus vehicles only display the target name. Left clicking on this unit will make it the primary target of your selected unit. Note: If you do not have LOS to the target, (the orders line will turn orange up to the point of blockage and black thereafter), left clicking will just set it as a priority target for your unit, which will try to fire on it if it comes into view. The TARGET command, when used on a terrain feature, creates an area fire order. The unit under command will fire to try and suppress that patch of ground until the TAC AI decides it’s a really bad idea (i.e. enemies show up 10m on the left of the unit) or you cancel the order. This is NOT as effective as targeting individual units. The NEXT TARGET command rapidly cycles you through targets the unit can see and the TAC AI thinks worthy of shooting full of holes. Note that this sometimes means you won’t be able to target some units with NEXT TARGET. (Just use the Hot Key "N" select a unit and hit the "N" key to see all the targets it "thinks" it can shoot at. You can Cycle through all your units with the "+" and "-" keys. Just hit + to hop to the next available unit, and then hit "N" to see what it can shoot at. I prefer to play with Unit Bases ON (Shift and I like to have all my target line and Movement Paths on as well, Shift "P" to cycle through those options. When Selecting units in Vehicles this can be tricky so sometimes you need to Shift V to turn off the graphic on all vechicles so you can jut see the occupnats. Hope that helps. 1.5 The LOS tool. Essentially, the LOS tool functions exactly like a TARGET command, but clicking will not assign a target. 1.6 Hiding In order to generally remain unseen, the HIDE command is used. There is no order line. The unit merely hits the dirt and qualifies as hiding. Once a until is hiding, it will try to refrain from opening up until it has a good chance to kill enemies (or the unit “freaks out”, more likely with low experience troops), it starts receiving heavy fire, or it gets the bejesus beaten out of it and runs away (Usually accomplished with artillery). While hiding, troops are very difficult to spot, but suffer a minor spotting penalty themselves. To stop hiding, re-issue a hide command or give any regular order. To Hide at the end of a movement order, plot the movement order, and then issue a hide order. The unit will move to its destination and then hide. Note: Vehicles and HIDE are just a bad combination. Vehicles do not actually hide, what they do is quiet there engines down so they won't end up as a sound contact to the enemy, if you have a tank waiting in ambush, behind a house or a hill or something (clearly out of LOS) then select Hide for the tank (while it is NOT moving) and it will quiet down its engine so as not to makes sounds the enemy can detect as a sound contact of enemy armour. IMHO this is of very dubious value :confused: . 1.7 Ambush Markers Sometimes you’ll want to custom tailor an ambush beyond just hiding and hoping something wanders into range. To do this, select either an HQ or a crew served weapon (like a bazooka) and then select the AMBUSH command. This will generate a targeting order, which you can then drag to anything within ~400m. Upon left clicking, an ambush marker will be set at the end of the targeting line. In the case of HQs, this marker represents a pre-planned ambush, and other units under the HQ’s command (see HQ concepts) can target it to participate in the ambush. When an enemy unit crosses this point, the units that have targeted the marker will fire on the enemy. For crew served weapons, the marker merely serves as an ambush for that weapon, and other units may not target it. This would be the equivalent of telling a bazooka to fire when a tank shows up at that break in the hedgerow. 2 HQ Concepts 2.1 Command Radius and Platoon Leaders All infantry squads in the game are assigned to a particular platoon. Ever platoon has an attached HQ unit which is its commander. In addition to representing the actual command staff of the platoon, this unit represents its center of effort and cohesion. As such, all units must stay within a certain range of their HQ in order to be “In command.” This range is the command radius of the HQ. The radius increases with experience and particularly good leaders, and decreases in thick terrain or if the subject unit is out of LOS. Units that are in command have a red line leading from them to their command unit. Units that are out of command have a black line. A Platoon HQ shows all lines, red or black, to its organic squads. Note: Infantry squads cannot be commanded by platoon HQs from other platoons, but crew served weapons can be under anybody’s command. Units that are out of command suffer morale and fighting penalties, delayed reaction times to orders, and do not get the benefits of any command bonuses that HQ might have. 2.2 Command Delay For movement orders, your men do not react automatically. Every movement order has a time delay before it actually begins. More experienced troops, troops who aren’t being suppressed, and troops that are fully rested have better reaction times than their counterparts. The biggest factor, however, is whether or not the unit is in command. Units that are out of command seem to suffer an additional 66% time delay. This doesn’t mean much to the best of the best whose reactions are incredibly fast anyhow, but for regular troops that’s an additional 13 seconds at least. 2.3 Command Bonus Not only do HQ units allow those under their command to fight to the fullest extent of their abilities, but often they add bonuses to unit performance. Units must be in command to receive these bonuses. The 4 areas of command bonuses are: Combat: Adds to the firepower/accuracy of the firing units as if they were more experienced. Is represented by a lightning bolt in the unit bar. Morale: Troops have the morale equivalent of an additional level of experience for each level of this bonus. Heart in the unit bar. Stealth: Troops are generally stealthier and spot other units better. Question mark in the unit bar. Command: Command delay is changed as if the unit were one level of experience better for each level of this bonus. Also creates a larger command radius. Star in the unit bar. Each bonus may be either one level (represented by the symbols above) or two, (above symbols surrounded in a gold box) 2.4 Higher HQs Besides platoon HQs, there are also Company and Battalion HQs in CM. One of these HQs automatically assumes command of any infantry squads in command radius not in command, and all crew served weapons in its command radius. They will not, however, assume command of infantry squads under the command of their platoon leaders. 3. Indirect Fire 3.1 Forward Observers/Off board artillery Off board artillery in CM is abstracted through the forward observer unit. Each FO is a team of two men that represents one off board battery. An FO does not fight like a traditional infantry unit, rather when the TARGET command is used, creating a blue target line. An artillery strike is requested on the targeted location. In the unit information bar, you should see the time remaining until the artillery strike arrives. Allied times are usually better, and smaller caliber weapons are typically faster to respond as well. Once there is one minute left until the strike, the time will start counting down in seconds. Around halfway through a few spotting rounds will fall, and then when the timer hits zero the battery will start firing for effect, unleashing volleys of four shells at a time. It will keep firing until the battery runs out of ammo or you cancel the fire mission. It is possible for the FO to request artillery strikes outside of its LOS. Simply drag the target line out of LOS (it will turn orange and black, orange for what he can see, black for what he can’t) and select an area to target. However, these strikes take about twice as long to arrive, and are inaccurate in comparison to a spotted strike. Also, you may wish to shift a fire mission a minor distance to accommodate for enemy movement or targets of opportunity. To do so, select the TARGET command again, and drag it around the current targeted area. As long as this line remains green, you may re-set the target line for a minor time delay. If you place the new target outside the region in which this line is green, you will have requested a new fire mission, and will have to wait for the full battery reaction time. 3.2 On Board Mortars On Board mortars must have LOS to a target to fire on it, unless they are in the command radius of an HQ unit. If a mortar is in command, it may fire at anything the HQ unit can see, even if the mortar itself cannot. Most mortars on board also have a minimum and a maximum range they can fire. These will be indicated by an “OUT OF RANGE” readout above the point of the target lien when issuing a firing order. -------------------- Play up! Play up! and play the game. [ July 20, 2002, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

Anybody remember that? it was a Well written post about how to play the game and what to do, "Step by Step" to enjoy the Demo so if you are completely new to the game you would have something to read like instructions about how to play? Mabye someone could just bump that thread? thank and Welcome aboard to all the new members lately. In the past week or so there have been ALL kinds of new members signing up here, maybe its all the advertising for CMBB that is catching people's attention. -tom w

what ever happened to that CMBO Demo Tutorial someone once made up? -tom w

VERY good question Kwiw Joe perhaps you could change the title of the thread to generate more response Maybe: "Gamey Shoot on the FAST move bug fixed in CMBB??" "Can I Still Shoot and Hit on the FAST Move in CMBB?" "Gamey Fast Move Accuracy bug still in CMBB? " Great thread, important question Perhaps it needs a more decriptive title though -tom w

oops sorry no problem -tom w [ July 19, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

Very Good! carry on thats good enough for me! THANKS! -tom w

Whattya mean? !! Download it now! play it at Lunch on your break or whatever tell us what you think no High presure sales here oh NO we wouldn't do that! (just joking) -tom w

download the demo its Free Play it it is available here: http://www.battlefront.com/downloads.html try it you'll like we can't possibly answer all your questions. you need to see for your self. Play the Valley of Terror Play FULL Fog of War and lead the Americans on their Attack And hold on to your seat for the ride of your life! tell me that is NOT the kind of game you want to buy? -tom w [ July 19, 2002, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

if you order it now it WILL arrive before CMBB is available, that is almost a certianty. It would be good practice for CMBB if you like to command small battions and companies and platoons and individual tanks, then this is the game for you. if not you can save you money and wait until Sept 20 for CMBB to come out. its your call. its only available online unless you buy the CDV copy in stores in Europe. Since I See you are from the USA you might as well order it today and start waiting for it to arrive (that is the first stage of the CMBO asCMilation process ) -tom w

Actually many of these points have been addressed and updated for the Gold Demo as the original was a Beta. The full list of changes will be included in the Gold Demo as a 'readme file' and include the following major updates: Changes for Gold Demo *PBEM Additions* - added play-by-email replay - added a 'Disable Undo' option (this can be toggled at any time, but is locked in for Hotseat/PBEM) *Sound Fix* - added an 'SC.ini' file in the 'Strategic Command Demo' folder. This will allow gamers that were experienceing sound problems to adjust for sound interruption, should eliminate long waits during button clicks etc. *High Refresh Rate Option* - also in the 'SC.ini' file you will be able to set a high refresh rate if you know your system can support it *Empty Text Box Fix* - pop up text boxes that were showing blanks on some systems should now show their information *Gamey Strategy Tweaks* - abandoning allied positions in the Med may peak Italian interest into joining the war if they have not already done so - early Axis invasion of Baltic States prior to Soviet annexation will be much riskier in terms of political fallout with Moscow. Initial political shock will be the same, but now there will be a continued increase in Soviet war readiness - USA and Italy will start with their full income if sneak attacked and units in the capital will have an entrenchment value = 3. This does not make this strategy impossible but simply much riskier - air attacks against rocket and naval units as well as against fortified units (i.e. Maginot) have been intellegently adjusted to limit AI baiting - added SU unit to Riga for the start of Barbarossa - added a few units to the 1940 SU setup - adjusted the SU transfer of Siberian Troops to an open period instead of only when SU existence is threatened during the winter months. (This one I really thought about, but I think it would be reasonable since I don't think the original transfer was made due to weather but rather because of the demands of the military situation at the time) *General Fixes/Tweaks* - extended save game file names to 38 characters from 20 - fixed 'next unit' bug when France was targeting units on the Maginot - fixed dissapearing Allied units in Vichy when France surrenders, basically a message pops up and says they surrender - Axis units do now finally and properly move to nearest adjacent city when France surrenders, so if Italian unit was in Africa moving towards Algiers they will move back to Tripolitania if that city is still friendly etc. - renamed 'Strausbourg' to Strasbourg - renamed 'Massachusettes' to 'Massachusettes' - decreased damages during naval Surprised movements in FoW - decreased damages slightly for naval combat (a decrease by 1 point for all attack and defence table values) - added info for saved AI games, basically so you can tell what difficulty and computer bonuses these games were set at - increased max surface raiding in the Atlantic to 40 MPP to include the value of Liverpool - increased individual sub raiding amount slightly in North Atlantic - adjusted reduced spotting to now properly include Air Fleets, Bombers and Rocket Attachments when spotting subs, basically spotting value - 1 - reduced disbanding value to about 50% less - added an updated 'resource_strength_sprite' with an indicator for when strengths are < 5, this will help to realize that some actions may be limited wrt these resources, i.e. no transporting or operations etc. - added a 'ScoreCard' for when you either defeat or have been defeated, keeps track of total resources plunders, units destroyed as well as an early victory bonus or late victory penalty - jet sounds now kick in at level 4 or higher - added units to Turkey and Sweden and increased entrenchment for Swiss units - fixed disappearing ships when you declare war on a country and have blocked their typical start locations Hope this helps, Hubert</font>

Thanks for all your replies The reason I have not played it is my main computer is a Mac (no Mac Version of SC) so I need to visit my friend or get a PC . anyway I have encouraged him to post here. He is NOT new to wargameing, but new to the idea of reading and posting on forums so he might be a litte imtimidated by the process (if he is reading this that might egg him on ) anyway I personally have been somewhat soured on WWII grand Strategy games (board games) as both my good friends ALWAYS nominated me to be Russian and then promptly proceeded to pull their now famous Hilter Youth (!) impressions on me and overwhelm and overrun my largely useless and hapless hords of conscript infantry with the glee only a megalomanic teenage destromanic could understand. Anyway, my personal feelings aside, I am much happier playing Combat Mission, the smaller scale games like Panzer Elite, also interest me but again it only runs on a PC. I can't wait for CMBB (the Eastern From Combat Mission) and I plan to Take the Russian and get some long sought revenge! (And Thats a Challenge my wargaming Friend!) Thanks again for all your posts! -tom w [ July 19, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

Its without a doubt the best war game you will ever buy if you like platoon level action Post D-Day in the ETO in WWII! -tom w

to make things easier I just set this page: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=1 as my home page then click home or bookmark it no problem -tom w

I did not play the game but my friend made these notes: There are some serious flaws in this game , it gets boring very quickly. If someone spent the time and effort on a World in Flames computer version it would be the greatest. Flaws .. computer has no intellegence factor at all in Fog of War ...as the German I have conquered USA and Britain and have been in Moscow all prior to May 1941 ... as the allied I have sunk the entire German navy with French ships, and been adjacent to Berlin by May '41 other peeves 1. must include Japan 2. Italy can not be activated prior to German proximity to Paris ( allows allied free hand ) ( they should be wide open and their actions reflected in neutrality shifts in USA and Russia ) 3. The allies can strip their entire world of all units and simply dump them into France, this combined with the French fleet sailing into the Baltic and sinking the German navy means that Germany will be stalemated on the Western front in attempts to take Paris its an ok time waster .. -my buddy the PC Guy any comments We grew up playing Third Reich and World In Flames and a few other WW II Grand Strategy games so by now we have a good idea of all the tricks to win the war and both sides -tom w