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British Tommy

A plea to Battlefront

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I wonder how long a game developer is expected to continue to provide updates to suit later computer developments? There has to be a limit, afterall is is a continuing expense that has to be paid for out of declining profits from a particular game over time. A few years seems reasonable to me.

Vista is mostly rubbish compared with XP anyway, anyone who uses it and finds it unsatisfactory should complain to Microsoft.

One thing I will complain about is the failure to update the CM games technology and reissue them as new and improved. Thats where the mistake was made, as was pointed out by millions at the time :P

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What I don't understand is how people who installed Vista and can't run CMx1 are different from those who installed Linux, or OpenBSD or Mach or Minix for that matter.

It wasn't a supported OS at the time when you bought the game. If you run an OS not on the list you are on your own.

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One thing I will complain about is the failure to update the CM games technology and reissue them as new and improved. Thats where the mistake was made, as was pointed out by millions at the time :P

The CM (pre-SF) was and is their gold standard and nobody has ever deigned this you'd assume updating the WWII version must be in their future..when I have no clue? I will say this though..shame on them if they continue let BB and AK languish without a new version and regard that series as a 'been there done that' thing..one of the richest, most rewarding game series of the whole friggen genre has been abandoned and quite frankly SF is not what brought people to the BF party.

I personally will not purchase the *new SF Marines, my next purchase from BF will only deal with the WWII era CM with stats based around the BB and AK series..they might actually and almost sturdily will get some positive game reviews again and sell nice numbers of it with lot's of happy campers returning to CM and forums rich with real war talk..the good ol'days need to return or BF CM will slide away from the WWII enthusiast..I'm sure this has been discussed adnosium.

Can anyone give us some *inside on this issue or a thread link.

.

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As Vista was not on the market when these games were produced, the comment by Redwolf is absurd. As I recall, when Combat Mission:Beyond Overlord first came out, the Windows XP system had not been produced, but this WAS updated to include it on the OS, so it CAN be done, IF Battlefront choose to do so.

What is needed, is for Battlefront to sell the rights to CM1/2/3, to, say, "Sold OUT".

They will then update it for VISTA and sell it at £4.99 ( UK ) a time! If they don't plan to update these games or do anything with them, then they should sell the rights to them.

I would suggust that people visit HPS Simulations Website and try their games.

They have updated them all to Vista ( and are likely to update again re any new OS ).

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As Vista was not on the market when these games were produced, the comment by Redwolf is absurd. As I recall, when Combat Mission:Beyond Overlord first came out, the Windows XP system had not been produced, but this WAS updated to include it on the OS, so it CAN be done, IF Battlefront choose to do so.

What is needed, is for Battlefront to sell the rights to CM1/2/3, to, say, "Sold OUT".

They will then update it for VISTA and sell it at £4.99 ( UK ) a time! If they don't plan to update these games or do anything with them, then they should sell the rights to them.

I would suggust that people visit HPS Simulations Website and try their games.

They have updated them all to Vista ( and are likely to update again re any new OS ).

No one from BF is listening any more. They have turned their backs on the CMx1 games. The only people who listen now are the players.

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As Vista was not on the market when these games were produced, the comment by Redwolf is absurd. As I recall, when Combat Mission:Beyond Overlord first came out, the Windows XP system had not been produced, but this WAS updated to include it on the OS, so it CAN be done, IF Battlefront choose to do so.

What is needed, is for Battlefront to sell the rights to CM1/2/3, to, say, "Sold OUT".

They will then update it for VISTA and sell it at £4.99 ( UK ) a time! If they don't plan to update these games or do anything with them, then they should sell the rights to them.

I would suggust that people visit HPS Simulations Website and try their games.

They have updated them all to Vista ( and are likely to update again re any new OS ).

Sorry, man, but this is nonsense. BFC did nothing to make CMx1 work on XP. It worked, because XP was compatible.

Vista itself is compatible, too, it's just that NVidia fatfingered the DX10 video drivers.

BFC never did anything about OS or graphics compatibility in CMx1. IIRC people got fog with ATI cards around 2007 when ATI finally slammed fog tables in.

Again, the only difference between XP and Vista is that Nvidia screwed up.

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Whilst I understand the logic behind Redwolf's reply, I disagree with the resultant answer given. CM2 for example, has a long list of known driver / card problems listed ( in/on the manual ). This did not stop them from marketing it as compatible with several OS. As the problem with VISTA appears to be much the same, ( if I understand Redwolf correctly ), why have the SPECS for CM2, ( and I presume CM1/3 ), not been updated ( as at 1/9/2008 ) to include Vista as part of the OS?

I suspect it's that they have tested CM1/2/3 on all the OS quoted, but have not tested Vista, so they are unable to legally include it.

If they can test CM1/2/3 for 2000, ME & XP ( including some ( at least CM1 )AFTER the original testing ), and update the SPECS; why not test for Vista ( or future OS ).

With people now buying OS based on VISTA, why would anyone buy a CMx1 game now?

Whilst some games out there do not require any upgrade re VISTA, and those that do generally require minor changes or patches from various non game company area's; that does not preclude companies providing CLEAR links to these patches / information OR making minor adjustments themselves where required. Unfortunatly Battlefront are not alone in this poor customer service.

Incidently, whilst researching this, I note that my copy of CM2 lists CPU as 233MHz or higher. My PC is 400MHz, hence I purchased it. Later, I was a tad miffed to find that the larger Scenarios ( lots of buildings / units ) tend to freeze up, some at the instant they are opened. As as 1/9/2008 the minimum specs listed ( on this website ) are now a CPU of 500MHz! That's mis-selling to me, even if it was an honest mistake.

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1) Define "Larger Scenarios". Remember that BFC only ever meant it to handle a company plus support.

2) The source code of CMX1 contains, AFAICT, proprietary algorithms. If BFC were to sell the code they would basically open this code up to the competition. Not a clever business model.

3)

What is needed, is for Battlefront to sell the rights to CM1/2/3, to, say, "Sold OUT".

They will then update it for VISTA and sell it at £4.99 ( UK ) a time! If they don't plan to update these games or do anything with them, then they should sell the rights to them.

And promptly go out of business. I doubt that the people out there who'd buy it are one tenth of one percent of the number of people needed to for a viable business plan.

4)Updating complex items, like software, is something akin to updating complex items like fighter jets. At some point, the upgrades get so convoluted and restricted by the initial shape that it's better, cheaper, easier and more effective to start over.

5) CMX2 is going to WW2, yet people still bitch and moan. Sometimes I think that the WW2 enthusiasts are the most destructive part of the wargaming hobby.

6) If you think you can do better, do it.

7) Name one other game of CM's scope and longevity.

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Whilst I understand the logic behind Redwolf's reply, I disagree with the resultant answer given. CM2 for example, has a long list of known driver / card problems listed ( in/on the manual ). This did not stop them from marketing it as compatible with several OS. As the problem with VISTA appears to be much the same, ( if I understand Redwolf correctly ), why have the SPECS for CM2, ( and I presume CM1/3 ), not been updated ( as at 1/9/2008 ) to include Vista as part of the OS?

I suspect it's that they have tested CM1/2/3 on all the OS quoted, but have not tested Vista, so they are unable to legally include it.

If they can test CM1/2/3 for 2000, ME & XP ( including some ( at least CM1 )AFTER the original testing ), and update the SPECS; why not test for Vista ( or future OS ).

With people now buying OS based on VISTA, why would anyone buy a CMx1 game now?

I still don't get why BFC is responsible for NVidia screwing up the drivers.

Why would BFC have to go through the trouble of researching a workaround, code it up and go through the whole QA blues for three games? When NVidia can just get their act together. What do you do if you waste all that patch time and when you are ready NVidia has new drivers and say "oh yeah, that, no big deal we just fixed it"?

People who buy a new notebook today can still download Ubuntu, get Cedega and play CMx1 that way. I think by now that even works without shrinking your Vista partition, because newest Ubuntus install to USB sticks. And can read the game from your Windoze disk. All for free except Cedega which is $5 a month (but keeps working if you stop updating and paying).

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1) Define "Larger Scenarios". Remember that BFC only ever meant it to handle a company plus support.

Several scenarios are referred too as "large" & even "huge". It's based on the points value used for the units & vehicles I believe. Also some scenario maps are much larger than others in area and therefore use up more graphics, especially if they have many buildings.

2) The source code of CMX1 contains, AFAICT, proprietary

algorithms. If BFC were to sell the code they would basically open this code up to the competition. Not a clever business model.

Not sure if selling the "code" is included in my premise, but games are "passed on" to other companies under licence, who have upgraded them. I presume the licence limits what the new company can do with what they have.

3) And promptly go out of business. I doubt that the people out there who'd buy it are one tenth of one percent of the number of people needed to for a viable business plan.

Sold Out is still in business, and it ONLY does games that have stopped being sold by the original company.

4)Updating complex items, like software, is something akin to updating complex items like fighter jets. At some point, the upgrades get so convoluted and restricted by the initial shape that it's better, cheaper, easier and more effective to start over.

Tell that to HPS. Also, Shogun Total War ( Warlord edition ) has been released

by Sold Out with a Vista upgrade. It may not be as difficult as you / Battlefront think.

5) CMX2 is going to WW2, yet people still bitch and moan. Sometimes I think that the WW2 enthusiasts are the most destructive part of the wargaming hobby.

If you don't like WW2, why visit/comment?

6) If you think you can do better, do it.

Smug & absurd. If I could do it, I would.

7) Name one other game of CM's scope and longevity.

Irrevelant to the point under discussion.

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I still don't get why BFC is responsible for NVidia screwing up the drivers.

Look at it another way. Why should NVidia change the operation of their drivers to suit Battlefront/ Battlefronts customers? All we are saying is that it is up to Battlefront to patch their games accordingly ( with NVidia help if required ) OR get NVidia to do it for them; IF they still expect to sell these games to anyone who does not currently have them ( who, by the way, is also likely to have a new Vista system ).

Why would BFC have to go through the trouble of researching a workaround, code it up and go through the whole QA blues for three games? When NVidia can just get their act together. What do you do if you waste all that patch time and when you are ready NVidia has new drivers and say "oh yeah, that, no big deal we just fixed it"?

It just means Battlefront & NVidea need to communicate with each other re the problem, preferably before Battlefront start anything.

People who buy a new notebook today can still download Ubuntu, get Cedega and play CMx1 that way. I think by now that even works without shrinking your Vista partition, because newest Ubuntus install to USB sticks. And can read the game from your Windoze disk. All for free except Cedega which is $5 a month (but keeps working if you stop updating and paying).

Not every-one here is as knowledgable as you with regard to such things.

However, no-one should NEED to buy a further OS ( of any kind ).

( If I buy anything else it will have XP & Vista ( if possible then ), so I can use either as req'd. )

Generally speaking Battlefront should upgrade it OR licence it to someone who will.

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Look at it another way. Why should NVidia change the operation of their drivers to suit Battlefront/ Battlefronts customers? All we are saying is that it is up to Battlefront to patch their games accordingly ( with NVidia help if required ) OR get NVidia to do it for them; IF they still expect to sell these games to anyone who does not currently have them ( who, by the way, is also likely to have a new Vista system ).

Lacking the code it's hard to judge but all indications point to NVidia being at fault, and BFC not. The game even ran on ATI's crap drivers.

It just means Battlefront & NVidea need to communicate with each other re the problem, preferably before Battlefront start anything.

I still didn't see one of us users go and formally report this bug to NVidia after we discovered than nvnews carries their Linux but not the Windoze developers.

Not every-one here is as knowledgable as you with regard to such things.

However, no-one should NEED to buy a further OS ( of any kind ).

( If I buy anything else it will have XP & Vista ( if possible then ), so I can use either as req'd. )

See, that's the problem. Those people who could make it run like that don't run Vista in the first place.

Ubuntu is free, you just have to pay a couple bugs for Cedega (a Windows ABI for Linux).

Generally speaking Battlefront should upgrade it OR licence it to someone who will.

They'll never license it out now. They now that an updated CMx1 would kill CMx2.

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I like WW2, but don't view it as the be-all and end-all of wargaming.

More to the point, I don't view everything else as heresy or betrayal

In order to upgrade the CMX1 code, you would have to permit access to the algorithms.

I know that complex systems sometimes need to be started over. I know that software is a complex system. I know BFC have one programmer and that they have said it is not so worth it for them upgrade. I don't know what the upgrade entails, but I have to go what the people who know the product and the market best tell me.

The Large and Huge battles(especially the latter) stretch the engine a long way beyond what it was originally intended for. Intended for a company plus, the engine was used to create "To the Volga" for CMBB which features multiple battalions over a huge urban map. There's no real upper limit to the size of the battle, and some designers have taken advantage of that.

Perhaps you should be complaining to Microsoft, who, rather than upgrading their operating systems over the years, have brought out two entirely new OSs since CM:BO was released.

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I still didn't see one of us users go and formally report this bug to NVidia after we discovered than nvnews carries their Linux but not the Windoze developers.

Now that's a shame. I can't do it myself because I don't have a Vista OS yet, let alone a NVidia driver. Those who do have should report it ( now they know ( or should do by now ) where to.

They'll never license it out now. They now that an updated CMx1 would kill CMx2.

Now that's a thought....

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I like WW2, but don't view it as the be-all and end-all of wargaming.

Me neither. I have 22 games; 6 Ancients, Shogun Total War ( Warlord ), The French & Indian War, Age of Sail, 5 Napoleonics, 2 ACW, Diplomacy & 5 WW2 ( including CM1 & CM2 ). Jack of all, master of several ( especially Shogun ).

More to the point, I don't view everything else as heresy or betrayal

I fail to see how you deduce that from the comments made on this Thread.

In order to upgrade the CMX1 code, you would have to permit access to the algorithms.

But a "licence" whould surely specify what can be done and not done with that access, and is legally binding.

I know that complex systems sometimes need to be started over. I know that software is a complex system. I know BFC have one programmer and that they have said it is not so worth it for them upgrade. I don't know what the upgrade entails, but I have to go what the people who know the product and the market best tell me.

Other people make other calls. Whilst Battlefront should know what's best for them, they can be wrong. Maybe no-one is interested in "licencing it from them, who knows? See also Redwolf's interesting surmise elsewhere...

Perhaps you should be complaining to Microsoft, who, rather than upgrading their operating systems over the years, have brought out two entirely new OSs since CM:BO was released.

Methinks you jest. It's up to Battlefront ( or NVidia ) to patch.

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4)Updating complex items, like software, is something akin to updating complex items like fighter jets.

Bad choice for a comparison.

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Methinks you jest. It's up to Battlefront ( or NVidia ) to patch.

No. Completely serious.

I fail to see how you deduce that from the comments made on this Thread.

That would be due to the following quote, and similar sentiments expressed elsewhere

The CM (pre-SF) was and is their gold standard and nobody has ever deigned this you'd assume updating the WWII version must be in their future..when I have no clue? I will say this though..shame on them if they continue let BB and AK languish without a new version and regard that series as a 'been there done that' thing..one of the richest, most rewarding game series of the whole friggen genre has been abandoned and quite frankly SF is not what brought people to the BF party.

-E, Not really, unless you are suggesting that you can take an F16 and give it internal weapons bays, stealth shaping and STOVL capability.

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Look at it another way. Why should NVidia change the operation of their drivers to suit Battlefront/ Battlefronts customers?

NVidia is in the *universal* PC hardware market, with attendant software. It's NVidia's job (if they have any sense) to make sure that their products are compatible with the PC world. CMx1 is not by any means the only app that doesn't work with Vista/NVidia drivers, and if NVidia doesn't get their act together ATI is going to eat their lunch.

Microsoft, like it or not, defines a programming-environment standard. Everybody else has to conform to it. BFC does, just like every other developer. NVidia is the outlier here.

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You might want to try installing Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 on your Vista machine. You can then install a Virtual XP client and most likely play CM1.

No, there's no hardware 3D support in these. CMBO softmode will work.

Even the Direct3D beta in VMware doesn't run CMx1.

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