Immobilizations In CM And Why I Want Them Reduced

[Brent Pollock]

Simple psych fix for you - bogging risk is part of a vehicle's unit profile. It is an integral part of what you are pitting against your opponent. Same deal with MG jamming.

Originally posted by Sanok:

[snipped by Brent] I play because I want to pit my units and abilities versus my opponent's units and abilities. If I lose, I want it to be because I was outplayed, not because of some unnecessary feature that takes out my only tank on the second turn of the game.[snipped by Brent]

[flamingknives]

Well, let's make MG jamming togglable.

Shall we also have a switch that will toggle between the armour penetration algorithms and a simple binary decision?

Let's also have a toggle for morale and, while we're at it, fatigue.

Why stop there? Let's toggle the random factor in shooting too. I hate it when my troops miss.

Ye Gods and tiny little fishes! Where will it end?

[GS_Guderian]

*installsalittleheadshotscript*

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

Can immobilization generally be avoided by the experienced player? Yes.

Wrong.

It cannot be avoided. Tanks are being immobilized on open, dry ground.

You and a couple of others are saying that keeping tanks on the roads is the only way to prevent immobilizations and that this is what we should be doing. Yet you know damn well that roads in CM don't lead from the player's back lines up to each vl. Of course you have to drive off the roads with your armored units, otherwise 90% of the time they would be totally useless.

The "chess player" camp doesn't want all this luck to interfere with skill and that's exactly what all this immobilization does, it takes away skill and substitutes it with luck.

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Well, let's make MG jamming togglable.

Shall we also have a switch that will toggle between the armour penetration algorithms and a simple binary decision?

Let's also have a toggle for morale and, while we're at it, fatigue.

Why stop there? Let's toggle the random factor in shooting too. I hate it when my troops miss.

Ye Gods and tiny little fishes! Where will it end?

It ends when you stop attacking straw men...

The REAL argument is to make this game more of a game using skill and less of a simulation which depends on a roll of the dice to move my tank from point A to point B.

I would find it hard to believe that if BFC kept in the bogging but reduced the immobilizations on open ground considerably, that you and the other "realists" on the board would be complaining.

You'd probably be enjoying the game too much to notice that your T-34 moved across some open terrain without breaking down on turn 2...

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Sanok:

I was just discussing this with a current opponent. I don't care if BFC has precise statistics on how frequently tanks became immobile in the real war. I play because I want to pit my units and abilities versus my opponent's units and abilities. If I lose, I want it to be because I was outplayed, not because of some unnecessary feature that takes out my only tank on the second turn of the game.

Play chess if that's what you want.

Luck has been an essential ingredient of war since people first discovered the joy of beating each other to a bloody pulp with pointy sticks, if not longer. If your battle-plan can not handle bad luck, than it was not very good as far as battle-plans go, and you deserved to lose anyway. End of story.

Regarding the idea of it being an on/off feature, I am with flamingknives. What else do you want to have as on/off? Where does it stop?

[Andreas]

Regarding the original point, it is vastly overstated. Bogging 'seemingly every time' on entering scattered trees. Yeah right.

Your argument does not become stronger from completely going over the top with your complaint.

I am not saying that there is not too much bogging/immobbing going on, but clearly it is nowhere near as bad as depicted in that handwringing first post. Unless I have a special copy of CMBB, in which case it is yours for only US$100,000, so that you can enjoy deploying your skill.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jacobs_ladder2:

Can immobilization generally be avoided by the experienced player? Yes.

Wrong.

It cannot be avoided. Tanks are being immobilized on open, dry ground. </font>

[chiavarm]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

[QB]

Wrong.

It cannot be avoided. Tanks are being immobilized on open, dry ground.

I believe an Immobilized vehicle is due to mechanical failure (breakdown / damaged) or an upgraded bogged condition.

I also contend that using the fast movement mode increases the chance of mechanical failure.

Therefore the chances are good that a vehicle will become immobilized.

I wonder if the probability is the same for all vehicles, if relatively new models would be at increased risk, and/or it is model specific.

[stikkypixie]

So what are your opinions on weak spot penetrations? One of the things that I like about this game is its unpredicability. Tank X usually kill tank Y, but now and then you get other results. If you like predicability and balance, so that you can match your "skills", I suggest some sort of RTS.

[Andreas]

They should have an on/off switch. Just like my tactical abilities, but unfortunately in the latter case, the switch seems to be stuck on 'off'.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Regarding the idea of it being an on/off feature, I am with flamingknives. What else do you want to have as on/off? Where does it stop?

Funny...I don't remember me or anyone else saying anything about having an "on/off" feature for immobilizations.

Why don't you try reading the post Andreas before replying...

[Xipe66]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

Regarding the idea of it being an on/off feature, I am with flamingknives. What else do you want to have as on/off? Where does it stop?

Funny...I don't remember me or anyone else saying anything about having an "on/off" feature for immobilizations.</font>

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Xipe66:

If someone else said that, then fine.

I, on the other hand, will never be for getting rid of bogging or immobilization entirely, even if it's an option.

[junk2drive]

Like so many things with CM, there should be an on/off user choice button in a parameters screen.

Sixth post on first page.

My comment came from games like Steel Panthers where you have a user parameters screen. There are things you can turn on or off to suit your style. Like breakdowns.

In the editor for ops the designer can set repair/recovery/resupply/etc

Why not have a player screen too.

[dieseltaylor]

I am amazed at this thread because I must have played well over 200 games in the CM series and bogging has never been more than an occasional inconvenience to me. Have I been abnormally lucky?

I do not think so, perhaps I do not make such a big deal out of it and carry it around like an albatross lamenting how unlucky I am.

Of course I have suffered badly by using a MKIV Stug with the super 75mm which bogged twice in a game and contributed to a loss but then I know it is a nose heavy bugger when I bought it - win some lose some.

Yes I know that some tanks are more boggy than others and I use them more carefully if I buy them. As for a turn off switch I think that sums it up perfectly -- lets all start playing to different versions of the game where our personal untutored opinion is gratified. God forbid that we ever play anyone whose perceptions differ from ours -- 10 e-mails arguing over the game settings -- great!

[junk2drive]

If I play vs I should have a choice.

If I PBEM, my opponent and I discuss version, size, forces etc.

Some people use Fionn's rules or other agreements.

Some people are just asking to take the "luck" equation out of the battle.

I too have checked ground pressure stat before going off into the soft ground or snow.

I would be nice to choose when.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

I am amazed at this thread because I must have played well over 200 games in the CM series and bogging has never been more than an occasional inconvenience to me. Have I been abnormally lucky?

I only become hyper aware in CMBB. In AK the % is reduced.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

I am amazed at this thread because I must have played well over 200 games in the CM series and bogging has never been more than an occasional inconvenience to me. Have I been abnormally lucky?

I only become hyper aware in CMBB. In AK the % is reduced. </font>

[jacobs_ladder2]

I would like to repeat two points and add a third:

First, there is absolutely no precedent for allowing the player control over immobilization. There is no other similar option in the game except for rarity and, arguably, fog of war. What you are asking for is a special concession distinguishing bogging from all other realistic facets of the game. In other words, bogging should be an option because it has a greater impact on the game than, say, errant artillery strikes, friendly fire from passing fighter-bombers or soldiers not following orders.

Second, BFC would have to make this concession based on the huge assumption that it is a critical issue. Or rather, that a large number of players are having their game experience ruined or significantly impaired by this feature. They are not and it is not.

And lastly, I have been playing since CMBO and I have NEVER had a tank become bogged on a road.

Sorry guys. You have as much control over your vehicles fate as you do over any other element of the game.

Cheers

Paul

[junk2drive]

We all know that BFC are not going to do any more with BO BB and AK but it is as much fun as a family reunion to argue about this stuff.

[SD Smack]

This is quite an interesting topic to read. My personnel opinion is that it is something you have to deal with because it wont change. Period end of story. If I lose a vehicle to the ground I am as annoyed as anyone else but that was the hand I was delt. Equipment breaks and sometimes it breaks at the most inoppertune time. Maybe a message stating that it was a mechanical failure or thrown track that caused the "bogging" as opposed to the ground conditions. But either way the vehicle is stuck and I have to suck it up and drive on.

And lastly, I have been playing since CMBO and I have NEVER had a tank become bogged on a road.

I have, but there were mitigating circumstances. My Panther was driving on a road and the ground conditions were heavy mud. So it got stuck but after two or so turns its pulled itself out and that was that. I didn't care because I know Russian roads during this time frame were not paved except for major arteries. I got lucky and it became unstuck.

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Walpurgis Nacht:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dieseltaylor:

I am amazed at this thread because I must have played well over 200 games in the CM series and bogging has never been more than an occasional inconvenience to me. Have I been abnormally lucky?

I only become hyper aware in CMBB. In AK the % is reduced. </font>

[Paul AU]

I don’t think that the ‘pro’ bogging people are properly reading what the ‘anti’ bogging people are saying.

There are several comments like this:

I do not make such a big deal out of it and carry it around like an albatross lamenting how unlucky I am.

My impression is not that anyone’s ‘complaining’, ‘whining’ about ‘bad luck’ on any personal level. Instead it seems to me that they (and I) have clearly said that when bogging happens as described, it’s simply a game-spoiler. It doesn’t make any difference whether the ‘bad luck’ happened to me or my opponent, the game is equally screwed.

I must have played well over 200 games in the CM series and bogging has never been more than an occasional inconvenience to me. Have I been abnormally lucky?

No, ‘game spoiler’ bogging is rare. But when it happens, they’re hard to forget. I think the point is, why have any games ‘spoiled’ at all, when a fix would be easy to implement? I can’t think of anything anyone’s ‘complained’ about, that would be easier to fix.

Been a lot of comments like:

As for a turn off switch I think that sums it up perfectly -- lets all start playing to different versions of the game where our personal untutored opinion is gratified.

‘Untutored’? I can’t see any logical place for a comparison between player ‘skill’ and being happy with game-deciding random events. Being able to accept game-deciding random boggings as just part of the game is no indication of any level of ‘tutoring’, or skill.

There is no other similar option in the game except for rarity and, arguably, fog of war.

In fact the ‘fog of war’ ‘toggle’ is exactly the type of thing that’s being suggested.

Every negative reaction made to the initial posts must equally apply to the fog-of-war toggle. Did it create ‘different versions’ of the game? Are they making ‘special concessions to other realistic aspects’? Did Battlefront make a mistake by including it?

What you are asking for is a special concession... (.ie, a simple improvement)…… distinguishing bogging from all other realistic facets of the game. You mean, just like the fog-of-war-toggle, and others, do?

Second, BFC would have to make this concession based on the huge assumption that it is a critical issue.

The small improvement would cost nothing to include in CMx2, so it doesn’t have to be ‘critical’ to be worth adding.

…that a large number of players are having their game experience ruined or significantly impaired by this feature. They are not and it is not.

How do you know this? IMO, if something is very easy to implement, and it’s going to stop any small amount of game-spoiling, why wouldn’t it be implemented?

I have been playing since CMBO and I have NEVER had a tank become bogged on a road.

Or on dry firm ground?

I recently saw an armoured car, at ‘move’ (or hunt) speed, in the snow (CM: BB) get immobilized on a road. It was a good example; none of my vehicles ever moved off the roads (well not much), and no matter how ‘tutored’ I am or aren’t, the only way I could have avoided that bog, was not to move at all.

Because in that case it was just one of a gaggle of ACs, it didn’t matter, but had it been one of few bits of armour I had…

To my mind, the only legitimate point made by any of the pro-immobilization bunch, as regards to a ‘bog-toggle’, is:

What’s the difference between randomly losing your carefully moving uber-tank to bogging on flat dry ground on turn 1, and say a highly unlikely artillery or aircraft hit? I think the difference is one of control, and the level of enemy action.

With the bogging, as described, there’s both nil control, and nil enemy action. Psychologically, it’s far more annoying for a particular game to be screwed by factors that have no bearing on either your, or you opponent’s actions (or level of ‘tutoring’).

(In the same way, the randomness of air attacks is second in line for the ‘scissors-paper-rock’ prize).

I hope someone who’s in contact with the Battlefront people can alert them to this … discussion. That way, if there’s no immobilization-probability-toggle in CMx2, we’ll know it was their conscious decision. (I wonder if the fog-of-war, rarity, etc toggles will disappear…)

[Andreas]

I do not think that FOW and rarity are at all the same things. People who believe that have not thought it through.

Rarity, FOW, etc. refer to the overall framework of the game, and affect all units in an equal way. By removing bogging completely through an off-switch, you are affecting only specific units in a differential way. Clearly, the advantage of a tank with lower bogging probability (that may also be reflected in the price) over that of a tank with higher bogging probability will be gone. You are not in fact equalising things on the battlefield, you are giving an advantage to one player, i.e. the German in CMBB.

You have control over bogging, to state that you do not have is simply untrue. In QB, your choice of vehicle affects it. In any game, your choice of advance route and speed affects it. These are also affected by enemy actions, because the enemy can try to push you into an advance route that is more risky for your tanks.

If you ask for a choice to remove bogging, you can also ask for an option to remove weak spot penetrations, since they are exactly the same thing. If you still believe it should be removed, then you should realise that it would affect price calculations as well. Your KT has just become more expensive, and your T34 cheaper. It is not a small change.

Ps. ACs getting bogged in roads with snow on them is historically correct. They should have high bog rates in snow. During MARS, 1.PD could not use its ACs due to snow. I do not believe (but stand to be corrected) that CM simulates roads where the snow plough has just been through.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Paul AU:

[snips]

Second, BFC would have to make this concession based on the huge assumption that it is a critical issue.

The small improvement would cost nothing to include in CMx2, so it doesn’t have to be ‘critical’ to be worth adding.

NO NO NO!

How do you know it would cost nothing? You have access to the CMX2 code, perhaps? Wouldn't it affect how the AI handles its vehicles? In that case, additional code would have to be written in order to cope. This is not free.

The very underpinning of the CM battlefield is based on luck. (or the distribution of random numbers) Weapons fire is based on probability rolls, armour penetration features numerous random factors, some of which the player is not informed about. Morale is based on random numbers and fanaticism is randomly assigned. If bogging being random is bad, surely other randomised features are also bad? If not, why not?

Bogging on dry, open ground is an abstraction for all sorts of things, from missing a gear to taking a turn badly to having an engine or running gear fail due to strain or fatigue. History books are replete with accounts of this happening. Bogging is as integral to the game as spotting, hit percentages and kill chances.