Diplo.. how does blocking work.. or dip in gen.

[Iron Ranger]

Diplo, a nice feature to the game that add's a interesting demension to where your MMPs go.

How does it work... not the basic's but.. examples:

German 2 chits in Spain Italy 3 Chits. Its thier two 'rolls' to see if there is an event? one 10% one 9%? Or one rolls that combines the two 19%??

If UK has put 2 chits in does it block two of german's chits and 2 of Italys chits.. making it a 0% roll and a -1% roll (UK favor then)?

In a recent game with Jolly I had 10 axis chits in Spain from the summer of 40 (France fell). I got one hit early on.. before France fell then nothing till early 43... I DOW spain at that point. So in two full years with 10 Chits vs I assume 5 Chits from UK... Nothing.

[Hubert Cater]

1) Two separate rolls

2) UK having 2 chits would effectively block Germany's 2 chits but not all three of Italy's chits... I'll have to think about this one but it should be perhaps by % instead as you described

[Terif]

Does that mean 2 UK chits block both 2 german chits AND 2 italian chits ?

From my games so far I have the strong impression it is this way, cause in all of them so far when UK had 5 chits, then Axis never again got a hit in Spain despite 5 german and 5 italian chits in it.

So each UK chit effectively cancels out 2 axis chits: one german and one italian if they are invested into the same country ?

[Hubert Cater]

Correct, I propose changing it to the following:

cumulative friendly diplomatic pressure (%) - cumulative enemy diplomatic pressure (%) determines percentage chance for a successful diplomatic hit

[Terif]

Yep, either based on a percentage base or change it so one chit cancel out exactly one enemy chit.

I personally would prefer the last one since it is simpler to calculate for the players and reduces the luck factor a bit.

Italy has only a 3% chance/chit, so percentage based would lead to the situation that only german chits would cancel out a UK chit and italian vs UK results still in 2% chance for UK (e.g. with 1 chit each in Norway, Sweden etc. the result then depends on luck) + long term increased disadvantage at the diplomacy front for Axis with USA/Russia in the war.

[Hubert Cater]

The only problem I see with sticking with chits only is in terms of deciding whose chits cancel out which enemy chits... i.e. do the UK chits cancel out Germany's chits or Italian chits and how to make that decision in a generic sense for all mods and possibilities etc.

Using a percentage based system is a bit more straightforward where you can cumulatively determine how much influence your side currently has invested and simply hope that it is more than your opponent's cumulative diplomatic efforts.

[Terif]

If chits only:

Allied chits cancel out first Germany´s (same strength), then Italian ones.

Axis chits cancel out UK then USA, Russia and last but not least France.

If percentage based:

Then I propose to set all nations to 5% effect and reduce the maximum number for the "weaker" nations like France and Italy (e.g. 3-4 chits instead of 5).

[Hubert Cater]

If chits only:

Allied chits cancel out first Germany´s (same strength), then Italian ones.

Axis chits cancel out UK then USA, Russia and last but not least France.

I thought about that but it just feels so arbitrary and only due to the order of the country list (as any other order would have to be hard-coded and this is not an option due to customization) and not necessarily because of any historical relationships / counter relationships in terms of diplomacy.

If percentage based:

Then I propose to set all nations to 5% effect and reduce the maximum number for the "weaker" nations like France and Italy (e.g. 3-4 chits instead of 5).

I've thought about this as well but I think this would take away from the historical feel of just how much influence each major really had. This way if you decide to rely on the Italians for diplomatic effect you might not get very far but perhaps if you rely mostly on Germany with a few Italian chits to help put you over the top (diplomatically) then you just might achieve what you are after.

I think because of customizations and how you can set various influence percentages the cumulative effect is probably the best option (for all cases)

[Terif]

Yes, agreed - for customization this is certainly the best way and also gives a better historical feeling .

[Hubert Cater]

Done

[Jollyguy]

But if you're going to make it easier for the Axis to get Spain, which will happen if they 10 chits to England's 5, then you better balance it and give something to the Allies, probably something substantial...much more than just the US Pacific Fleet.

This is because IMO if the Axis player gets Spain and is competant it's game over for the Allies. SC has always had an Axis bias, and if Spain can be gotten for cheap, then it will become a cookie cutter, as most Axis players will buy 10 chits ASAP.

Bob

[Terif]

Yep - as it is now, 5 UK chits will prevent Axis from getting Spain and usually Allies have enough time to buy them before Spain joins.

When it is percentage based, then Axis will get it nearly for sure with 10 chits and around 2 years time before Russia comes in to help blocking.

So then a compensation is necessary (either a mechanism to prevent Spain from joining too easily or ressources/units for Allies in case of a joined Spain).

[Sombra]

:confused: Why change it at all? If England insits on blocking Germany in Spain they can´t do anything else.. Italy can do something else meanwhile ... Or Italy can be used to block England and Germany forces Turkey etc. ... With percentages its again all chits on Spain... Boring

[Terif]

I tend to agree with Sombra:

It is necessary to know how diplo works, but changing it from how it works now will probably do more bad than good - especially concerning Spain. At least it would need some more work to fix the side effects. Perhaps better to leave it as it is .

[Scook]

As most games I have played, diplomacy can affect the outcome more than military might, and at a fraction of the cost. If it isn't Spain or Turkey, chits drop into USA and USSR, and can impact the outcome in too dramatic a fashion. I like having diplo, however, and it does provide variance to what can become a stagnant game.

Some thoughts I have been working with:

1) Double the number of chits, leave the cost the same per chit, and halve the % chance per chit. This will make diplo 2X as costly, but it still will be available.

2) Lower the % of change on major coutry hits only. Briinging USA and USSR to 65% in June of 1940, or taking USSR to 0% in 1939 is as good as conquering a major nation. Yes, when entry hits 0 that country gets 0 MPP.

3) Drop Spain to 25%, and change the Axis minors to make their entry for Germany based at 25% instead of 40%. 15% can be an additional 1-2 hits to get them in.

4) Limit the number of chits you can have on a country to 2-3. That will make it easier to block in one sense, and it will also have you spread chits out for more differing results.

There are a myriad of choices, and leaving it as is can be one option. I think it is worth discussing at length as some major gambits involve this aspect.

[Jollyguy]

Scook makes good points. My victory over Rambo was rooted in diplomacy…and probably aided by the fact that he had something like a dozen games going and didn’t bother to check his diplomacy screen regularly, and was hell bent on fielding more rockets! But anyway, diplomacy offers considerable variability, which, like the weather effects, some complained about at first, but I believe many are seeing can avoid cookie cutters and alter battlefield plans. So, my input would be not to change how the majors are done, as a wild card hit on one of them (can this happen with a major?) would really be interesting. Rather, I would increase the variability across the board and actually add more possibilities. As, like Scook said, you don’t want the game to become “stale.” But, you also don’t want it to be too random. But more breadth on the spectrum of variability would be interesting IMO.

[Scook]

To answer your question, yes majors can get the variable big hit. I am playing a friend in Honch's mod, and it has too many mpp's when I play him. If there is something improbable that could happen, he has a penchant of doing it. He took Spain from 25% to Entering the War in 2 turns. He took the USSR from 30% to 0% in one turn. He had both USA and USSR in the war by September 1940. We are talking a 5% chance backed by a 5% chance, so something like a 1 in 400 shot. But 5 games in a row, this has happened to me. Yes, I am getting irritated.

Normal human beings won't have quite this luck, but I have had a stretch of it for several games in a row, and it's not what I would call fun.

Now that I have vented, I feel better. Thanks for your patience

Sean Cook

[Sombra]

@Scook then I think you possibly discovered a bug. The dilpo for majors should not allow the additional bonus jump I think.

[Hubert Cater]

Good points and I'll think about this some more.

[Iron Ranger]

Some interesting ideas above but I dont think we need to make it that radical. I'm looking mostly from a histoical bent here, though balance is needed.

1) Adjust the % given to a few of the major powered.

France needs to be droped, 2% seams right. They were policially and monitarily a bankrupt system by 38-39. 4% is greater then what the US starts with. And latter in the game what else is the allies going to spend French MMPs on?

USA: Only 3% for the richest conutry in the world? USA spent like mad to make everyone love her in the 40s.

If we are going to look at Germanys 5% for a base then perhaps these should be the numbers.

Ger 5%

It 3% (Spain should be a IT Minor if activated)

UK 4% (remember its all looking axis early on and everyone loves a winner)

USSR 4% (Communits were both loved and hated in the 40%)

USA 5%

France 2%

2) Keep it as is right now. Chits cancel chits, simple and works well. So 5 UK chits in Spain would block 5 from Germany and 5 from Italy.

3) The % from friendly nations should NOT stack. Each had thier own plans, the US and USSR did not see the world in the same way. UK was trying to protect its empire, the USA wanted it removed, USSR wanted to spread its political system (same as US). Germany was racisit, its main goals were.. insane. Remove all Jews ect ect ect... Italy was not interested in this (no Jews from Italy were sent to death camps)

I think the present system is very close to perfect.

Early Game: Minor Allyed advantage

Post Frace: Axis advantage, but UK can block any one country.

Mid Game: Even but most minors are gone (2vs2)

Late Game: Allied advantage... but really no one plays it this late so who knows what really happens.

[hellraiser]

Maybe the need for 40% spanish pro axis stance influencing RO/HU joining , needs reconsidering. There was no influence IRL. RO and HU could care less about Franco's position.

Wrt diplo chits, there is a fairly common Axis' strategy to scrap intel and rockets tech chits and sink 4 diplo chits in Spain during the first turn of the game. pretty powerful move and with lucky hit, you can push Spain in the 80's.

I would propose to eliminate the residual cash from scraping tech chits. Yeah, you just make room for some more important tech, you don't get any refund. This way you allow England to have a shot at diplo starting with turn 2.

And perhaps another interesting ideea would be to eliminate mega diplo successes like +35% in one turn. You can sweet talk a country only so much per turn. Getting Spain in by turn 3 is a joke.

[Konigs]

"pretty powerful move and with lucky hit, you can push Spain in the 80's." Hellraiser is soooo right.

Bio-wizard just pushed Spain to 78% on the Axis second turn in our game. I had to spend everything British and French in their second turn to try and stop them from coming in. I love the Diplomacy part of game but maybe too powerful, seems like we all agree but just need a good adjustment made to this area of game. HC hopefully can absorb all of the input and come up with something good.

Anybody up for good reading, "Warlords" is a good book out about the politics that raged between all four of the major leaders, Winston,FDR,Uncle Joe and AH.

[Sombra]

I like the diplomacy right now how it is. Hellraisers jump happens soooo few times in between to add the right spicwe to the game. Thr important part IMO was to clarify how diplo works

[Iron Ranger]

Dilpo still needs some tweaking.

Combined the new system with the decress in Amphib range means the common Anti Sealion rule seams unneeded. Since sealion is easy to stop (right?) UK is now free to spend on Diplo as she wish's.... mainly on the US it seams.

In the past that 'normal' time USA seamed to enter was summer of 42 (everyone was ignoring Scandinavia). While I dont have alot of games under my belt I'm looking at USA entering Summer of 41 now.

Hell in my game with Bio USA entered the same turn I DOWed USSR.. early June. She was at 81% but the incress in % due to DOW pushed her to 100% that turn.

Game with Bio:

Std opening moves.. Denmark but not Norway falls

DOW SPain.. took Gabralter winter 1940

UK puts chits in USA.. gets 3 hits (minor ones)

by spring of 1940.. USA is at 81%

Seams too high but ok, UK gets 3 hits. One abnormal DOW (Spain) + 10% from Axis control of the Rock (?). So she enter's early?

Need to look at the balance on this. To top it off with all three allies powers active Turkey is getting bribied like hell. And there is no way to stop this (perhaps that good/historical)