UK language usage questions

John Kettler · September 11, 2017

For all you from the UK and maybe the CW as well, I recently came across and began systematically watching in the wee hours a UK reality show called Ex On The Beach, which I consider a fantastic living laboratory for intense group dynamics while also under randomly inserted, varying as to nature, aperiodic stress. Have been interested in such things ever since I read about the Situation "X" training exercise for would-be O.S.S. officers during World War II. In this show, which seems to have a fair number of a group called Geordies (something I don't really have a handle on), I have quite a few times encountered the use of "us" where normal usage would be "me." Thus, a girl might lament "He doesn't love us any more," and a guy might say "You've broken your trust with us." Sometimes, this is used in the same sentence, certainly small group of sentences, with the standard "me." What I'd like to know is the extent of this unusual, by US standards, anyway, usage? Is it highly localized ( few cities), regional, or nationwide?

The other question I have pertains to swearing and such. The British upper class has a reputation for proper manners, but I've seen shows in which, for example, top London socialites routinely express themselves in what, by US standards of polite discourse, would be deemed horrific language of the sort which would, at best, result in dagger looks and could easily result in being asked to leave a restaurant or even be permanently banned. Things I would never ever have dared to say in mixed company, and certainly not in front of my mother, come gushing forth effortlessly from their mouths, as does altogether more than I care to know about their excretory functions. When I was a boy, ladies would excuse themselves to powder their noses, yet over and over again, I've seen London socialites, dressed, bejeweled and coiffed to the nines, at a formal dinner, excuse themselves saying they need to have a bit of a wee or a poo. Believe that would put me off on my food, not to mention possibly triggering choking and/or decorating the person across from me! While I'm generally in favor of candor, this sort of thing is altogether too much. Common courtesy, of the sort drilled into me by my mother when I was a little boy, seems shockingly lacking, as does much sense regarding where it's appropriate to bring up something fraught and personal. Why on Earth would someone think it's a good idea to get into a hot matter at, say, someone's birthday party or wedding rehearsal? My mother would've crucified me over such a thing. There are zero controls on what participants of Ex On The Beach may say, and the result has been language which would, as the old cavalry saying goes, would make a trooper's horse blush. It's many times worse than that of the socialites. Could someone explain to me how the reputedly genteel English seem to, on a considerable scale, use language which would impress the saltiest sailor or foulest mouthed longshoreman? I just don't get it!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 11, 2017 by John Kettler

Michael Emrys · September 11, 2017

Fair questions, John, but let me say as a non-Brit observer of their mores that first of all we Americans tend to have an overly romanticized idea of how genteel they are. The British working class has always freely used what we would consider vulgar language. And the aristocracy has always done what it damn well pleased. I have the sense that it was the middle-class bourgeoisie who insisted on "Victorian family values" and I suspect that two world wars went a long way toward loosening that up as well. Even a superficial study of English history will reveal that most of the so-called gentlemen were cutthroats, brigands, and pirates in all but the technical, legalistic sense, and their language often reflected that. It wasn't always the way that PBS' Masterpiece Theater depicts it.

Michael

Sgt.Squarehead · September 11, 2017

You won't learn much about Britain by watching shows like that. :lol:

Wicky · September 11, 2017

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Keeping-Up-Appearances-Etiquette-Fortunate/dp/0563369752

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Michael Emrys · September 11, 2017

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You won't learn much about Britain by watching shows like that.

My point exactly. I think unfortunately most Americans' sense of what Britons are like is drawn from such sources. We used to know better, which is why we fought to become independent. That and the fact that we could become richer faster on our own.

Michael

John Kettler · September 13, 2017

Michael Emrys,.

Am well aware the working class in England has always been colorful in its language, such as the famous or notorious fishwives of Fulton. The Victorians still blow my mind, being no paranoid about sex they covered table legs lest gentlemen get aroused! You left out narcotraffickers (opium) and top tier slavers as true nature of some English gentility.

Wicky,

Dashed off to Amazon to take a look and read a bunch of glowing reviews. Unfortunately, the geniuses at Amazon neglected to provide a Look Inside, and I never saw the show.

Andy,

I've watched lots of other UK programs, including plays, films, documentaries, comedies, drama and reality programs. I've read the Monty Python boys used to drive the censors mad. Benny Hill was a terror who could never be seen on prime time here, certainly not when I was growing up, and I think Graham Norton would've been iffy at best. Sir Richard Attenborough was never going to hurl oaths and imprecations, nor was Masterpiece Theater, save in plays where profane or blasphemous expressions were part of the script, earthy, likewise "The World at War." That wargameing reality show "Time Machine" had lots of off color language, too, and it featured players from all over the UK. Some movies and miniseries are much more like the issues I've raised. "Reilly," for example was quite blue when it came to language, contrasting dramatically with the beautiful places and exquisitely dressed characters. That cop show set in Yorkshire would practically take paint off the walls at times, and "Whitechapel Road" (believe that was the title), from the highest to the lowest, had characters speaking in ways which would've exhausted Mom's supply of soap to wash out mouths! "Sherlock," also portrays considerable unfiltered language, such as that coming from Morcroft, Sherlock's brother, someone definitely from the upper crust. Regarding American perceptions, I read somewhere ours are based, as far as expressions of the Cheerio, old boy" and such, on doughboy experiences in England during the Great War. We a a bit behind, it would seem. Meanwhile, in "Ex On the Beach" I've been surprised to learn that "graft" and "grafting" have nothing to do with either botany or larceny. Nor is a mug confined to hot beverages or one's face. It's clear that mug in the program's usage is bad, whether applied as a noun or verb to self, friend or a lady someone opts to defend. I daresay, too, that something close to the End of the World would result here in the States were someone's significant other to cuddle with someone else, as commonly seen in the show. Indeed, it might be enough to cause some to flip out and others to initiate a separation or maybe divorce proceedings. Different worlds!

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 13, 2017 by John Kettler

Michael Emrys · September 13, 2017

12 hours ago, John Kettler said:

You left out narcotraffickers (opium) and top tier slavers as true nature of some English gentility.

Yeah, I thought about this later. It also occurred to me that out of fairness I should have included the point that more or less anybody who has achieved a significant amount of power and wealth in this world has done the same.

As for the dark and labyrinthian world of British slang in general, I found even the moderate doses encountered in British crime fiction to be a real education. But when I got plunged into the deeper oceans of contemporary slang, I felt as if I had been tossed overboard while the ship had pulled away over the horizon. It can be truly inscrutable and ever evolving and there is no reliable and up to date guide on the subject. It comprises a stern warning that outsiders are not welcome.

Michael

Sgt.Squarehead · September 13, 2017

It's all bollocks JK, audio-visual Thorazine. :mellow:

2 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

It comprises a stern warning that outsiders are not welcome.

Not at all.....IMHO it's more of a signal to outsiders that they should just relax and be themselves. Don't try to blend in with the locals, you can't, so be who you are and we'll put up with you (or not) based on that. We're a tribal bunch, but we're also quite social.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

Michael Emrys · September 13, 2017

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

It's all bollocks JK, audio-visual Thorazine.

Can't argue with that.

Michael

Combatintman · September 14, 2017

14 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

It can be truly inscrutable and ever evolving and there is no reliable and up to date guide on the subject. It comprises a stern warning that outsiders are not welcome.

Michael

You clearly have not heard of Roger's Profanisaurus ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger's_Profanisaurus

http://viz.co.uk/category/rogers-profanisaurus/