Hurtgen Forest Impressions

[RockinHarry]

Made a litte demo video showing some hurtgen forest impressions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z3pixhxWTE

A german strongpoint position (trenches + wooden shelter squad bunker) in the mids of a heavily shelled pine forest.

The barrage is from 4 x US 81mm mortar platoons (12 tubes), launched by the AI by means of 4 layered support targets (Destroy) on the same area.

Some experiences:

Wooden shelters do not give much protection vs. US 81mm mortars. Sometimes near misses kill/injure parts of the crew, sometimes a "penetrating" hit kills all of them at once. Sometimes the crew is worn down within 2 minutes. In all cases the wooden shelter kept intact to the last, even when completely emptied of the crew. Oh well...:eek:

The 81mm mortars do pulverize the trees in the area within minutes, with nothing left of them. They get stripped from foliage overtime, then the tooth picks remain, until these vanish as well.

To have sorts of a fallen trees FX, I modded the bocage BMPs to show the foliage of pine "Tree E". Low bocage (gaped sections "- -") then was used to give the impression of fallen pine tree. A log from flavor objects then was nudged into the gap and at the end. Done.

Trenches are 1m deeper than surrounding ASs. Shelter is 2m deeper, thus creating the treacherous rectangular pit.

[sburke]

hehe heh throw in a little barbed wire there and I think we found hell on earth.

Here is my current map. I am unhappy with the base as yet as the proportions for Kommerscheidt and Schmidt are off.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Schmidt%20125%20yd%20scale%2016%20sq%20KM%20map%20ver%202.btt

As to the actual battle conditions, this may not be the classic slog in the woods fight some might expect. The 28th was able to get a Battalion across the Kall and to Schmidt fairly easily once they had fought there way into Vossenack. That is when the s**t hit the fan. They now had a unit with an insecure supply line in an exposed position with little armor support being attacked by the 116th Pz and 89th ID. Bad Day at Black Rock.

[RockinHarry]

Yet another screenie. US AI infantry took the german strongpoint position.

[RockinHarry]

hehe heh throw in a little barbed wire there and I think we found hell on earth.

Here is my current map. I am unhappy with the base as yet as the proportions for Kommerscheidt and Schmidt are off.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Schmidt%20125%20yd%20scale%2016%20sq%20KM%20map%20ver%202.btt

As to the actual battle conditions, this may not be the classic slog in the woods fight some might expect. The 28th was able to get a Battalion across the Kall and to Schmidt fairly easily once they had fought there way into Vossenack. That is when the s**t hit the fan. They now had a unit with an insecure supply line in an exposed position with little armor support being attacked by the 116th Pz and 89th ID. Bad Day at Black Rock.

Just could make me a rough impression of your efforts in the editor, but not in 3D unfortunately. OOM error struck again... Looks like a hell lot of work so far! :eek:

Think the few days Schmidt-Kommerscheidt battle is well suited for a CMBN campaign string. It´s little actual forest fighting, if not taken the events in the Kall river gorge into account (116. Pz reccon cutting the line, hold by US engineers).

One my old hurtgen forest projects (reaching back til CMAK) for the 28th US ID, was the initial attack on Vossenack town and the struggle for Ochsenkopf hill.

Beside that I have mainly 9th US ID events on the list, which expended themselves before the 28th went in. The classic SL "The Clearing" is one of them, as well as "Wegeleins Charge" and many more I apparantly lack time for to make noticable progress.

Now I´m mainly busy with prototyping, testing single combat and terrain modules, experimenting with the AI scripts and such. This should get me prepared for full scale scenario making later on.

[sburke]

Just could make me a rough impression of your efforts in the editor, but not in 3D unfortunately. OOM error struck again... Looks like a hell lot of work so far! :eek:

Think the few days Schmidt-Kommerscheidt battle is well suited for a CMBN campaign string. It´s little actual forest fighting, if not taken the events in the Kall river gorge into account (116. Pz reccon cutting the line, hold by US engineers).

One my old hurtgen forest projects (reaching back til CMAK) for the 28th US ID, was the initial attack on Vossenack town and the struggle for Ochsenkopf hill.

Beside that I have mainly 9th US ID events on the list, which expended themselves before the 28th went in. The classic SL "The Clearing" is one of them, as well as "Wegeleins Charge" and many more I apparantly lack time for to make noticable progress.

Now I´m mainly busy with prototyping, testing single combat and terrain modules, experimenting with the AI scripts and such. This should get me prepared for full scale scenario making later on.

Yeah this is the full 4x4 that stretches from the Kall crossing to Schmidt. It would be sliced up for actual scenarios. Tere is a lot of terrain that isn't in the battle, but helps me get the proportions in line. I'll also have a map of Vossenack that will include the gorge as well. I'll slice it up before adding in the details.

[Sgt Schultz]

Would more permanent bunkers help?

Modular buildings have a decent amount of structural integrity.

[RockinHarry]

Would more permanent bunkers help?

Modular buildings have a decent amount of structural integrity.

I like the looks of this sort of constructions, but the problem is that predamaged modular buildings are even more vulnerable to any sort of fire than undamaged ones. You used a 3 story MB, damaged 2 times with ALT-SHIFT-Click?

From my tests a medium intensity mortar barrage on this structure would kill/injure occupants very quickly, not something I would expect from a pillbox. Thus the protective value of pillboxes and buildings in CMBN remains questionable.

During recent test plays on the little hurtgen forest prototype, I figured that the vulnerability of (wooden) shelters vs. mortar fire depends largely upon placement in relation to the enemy (allied/axis friendly) direction setting in "Mission/Data".

I noticed a number of mortar shells just falling inside the wooden shelter, without damaging or destroying it. Without considering a "bug" and from my very close observation of falling shells, I figured these shells must have fallen through the shelters firing port. In these cases, most or all of the crews get killed, yet the shelter stays intact for a new crew to mount.

Another vulnerable point appears to be the backdoor. Shells impacting near the backside of a bunker are likely to at least injure a crew member.

If the shelter frontside is rotated away from the enemy friendly map edge, then shells falling from this direction are less likely to fall through the firing port, as well as there´s less chance for a shell impact near the frontside and killing/injuring crew members through the firing slit by blast and shrapnel effects.

So if the enemy map edge is east, then rotate the pillbox north or south, thus showing the less vulnerable broadside vs enemy direct and indirect fire. In many occasions I figure this setup undesireable, if the shelter is meant to be a combat position, as you can´t obviously fire towards the main enemy frontline directly, unless friendly/enemy map edges do not coincide with general movement directions (enemy map edge EAST, but setup to attack NORTH-SOUTH across the map).

[Sgt Schultz]

I like the looks of this sort of constructions, but the problem is that predamaged modular buildings are even more vulnerable to any sort of fire than undamaged ones. You used a 3 story MB, damaged 2 times with ALT-SHIFT-Click?

From my tests a medium intensity mortar barrage on this structure would kill/injure occupants very quickly, not something I would expect from a pillbox. Thus the protective value of pillboxes and buildings in CMBN remains questionable.

Aye, the front of that bunker is a damaged 3 story MB.

The best work-around I have found so far is to bury just a single tile pillbox as shown and surround it with trees. there is only one way in or out, but there is also no LOS for mortars/FO unless one is staring the occupants in the face.

Connecting sunken trenches are easy to connect with doors available on any side. This opens up LOS to the danger zone a bit.

Then add more pillboxes than mortars to service them. Take away most/all Ami 60s, limit the on-map 81s and reduce ammo counts on off-map assets. The attacker now has a wonderfully complex tactical situation. Can kill a few pillboxes.... but which ones? Once they're rubbled, they STILL provide cover/concealment.

If you are dealing with a historically accurate arty count, then the best we can hope for is improved pillboxes in a future Module.

EDIT - To avoid/reduce near-miss casulaties to the front, it is advised to FACE the opposite direction as soon as incoming is detected. OR, make the pillbox one level deeper(2 stories) and send the boys into the basement until the arty passes.

[LongLeftFlank]

...or we can hope for the blast effects of mortar rounds (frag, not demo) to be significantly reduced.

I should really not be able to breach hedgerows with 60mm....

[Sgt Schultz]

Quick and Dirty pillbox and connecting trenches.

All grey/blue from all points of trench or inside pillbox.

[RockinHarry]

Yep, as I do for quite some time already (trenches and/or foxholes in -1 height AS).

I´d zig zag the trenches as they did in RL every 10 meters or so.

[RockinHarry]

Yet another video showing that wooden shelters actually provide enough overhead cover vs. direct 82mm mortar hits, but the oversize fighting aperture and the inability of the crew to effectively take cover within, makes it vulnerable from near hits outside and occasional shells passing right through the aperture at the frontside.

In the video, the shelter takes 4 direct mortar hits in short time, without harming the crew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOxaxviGEI

[sburke]

One my old hurtgen forest projects (reaching back til CMAK) for the 28th US ID, was the initial attack on Vossenack town and the struggle for Ochsenkopf hill.

Beside that I have mainly 9th US ID events on the list, which expended themselves before the 28th went in. The classic SL "The Clearing" is one of them, as well as "Wegeleins Charge" and many more I apparantly lack time for to make noticable progress.

Now I´m mainly busy with prototyping, testing single combat and terrain modules, experimenting with the AI scripts and such. This should get me prepared for full scale scenario making later on.

You've probably seen this map, but if not it shows some info on the 9th ID attacks and German pillbox locations. it also shows why the battles for Schmidt didn't so much reflect that. Germeter was actually the end of the West wall fortifications. The push to Schmidt outflanked the fortifications to the south. Makes it pretty clear why the German rapid response. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Siegfried/maps/USA-E-Siegfried-6.jpg