German Ranks

[pcelt]

No expert but just puzzled

With German infantry units it appears from the in-game rank indications shown in interface that 1st platoon commanders are always Lieutenants but 2nd platoon commanders are never officers of any rank.

Puzzled as to why this appears to be the case.

Any enlightenment would be appreciated-thanks

[JG11Preusse]

?? i dont really understand what you like to know.

"zugführer" are still and also was in former times also "unteroffiziere" .... some are leutnant, some oberleutnant, some are feldwebel, oberfeldwebel, hauptfeldwebel, stabsfeldwebel, oberstabsfeldwebel, stabsunteroffizier or just unteroffiziere.

the bold ones are in common not "zugführer".

[Rokko]

I assume due to lack of officers more and more tasks had to be carried out by NCOs.

In some Panzergrenadier platoons you will even have NCOs as 1st Platoon CO.

[JG11Preusse]

I assume due to lack of officers more and more tasks had to be carried out by NCOs.

In some Panzergrenadier platoons you will even have NCOs as 1st Platoon CO.

no ... it is and was normal that "unteroffiziere" also are "zugführer"

[pcelt]

Thanks for feedback-----Was it the custom as losses had their impact on German officer numbers to ensure as far as possible that the 1st Platoon CO was an officer but it would be far more likely that 2nd and 3rd platoons would have an NCO as Commander.

(Submitted before last response)----

[JG11Preusse]

noooooo its normal that underofficers are platoon leader in ngermany this and former times.

nothing to do with losses or no losses.

also the platoonleader of the first platoon (zug) can be a underofficer (f.e. oberfeldwebel) and the leader of the second platoon a "oberleutnant" or other way round.

the reason can be, that underofficer grades like oberfeldwebel or hauptfeldwebel (or higher) in general have much more expierience than a leutnant or oberleutnant (second or first lieutenant).

[pcelt]

JG11---------Thanks for your informed feedback-- you have clarified the sitn and assuaged my puzzlement---i can now again sleep at night.......

Cheers

[JG11Preusse]

JG11---------Thanks for your informed feedback-- you have clarified the sitn and assuaged my puzzlement---i can now again sleep at night.......

Cheers

sounds good ... sleeping at night is good for the health

[Battlefront.com]

Just to confirm, the modern Bundeswehr continues this practice. It is, however, unusual within NATO and other modern "Western" forces.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Just make doubly clear, was this a pre-WW II practice as well?

Michael

[JonS]

Just make doubly clear, was this a pre-WW II practice as well?

My - imperfect - understanding is that it was as a result of the rapid expansion of the Heer in the late 1930s and early 1940s. There simply weren't enough officers to go around, so they economised by installing Sgts to lead most platoons.

[Michael Emrys]

Okay, thanks. I was pretty sure it had something to do with shortages of junior officers, but couldn't recall when it went into effect. Your statement rings a bell.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

I'd have to go dig out my pre 1940 TO&E sources, but I believe it was in place at least since the 1936 expansion. My understanding is the same as JonS' in that it was an expedient measure because the Treaty of Versailles greatly restricted the number of officers (and other things, of course). What the Germans did was used their NCOs as leadership cadres for all sorts of positions that were usually performed by officers. This kept them from violating the treaty, yet having the basic infrastructure ready to support a rapid expansion in a very effective way.

It was very gamey of them

The system has a lot of advantages, actually. Every Squad has NCOs in it. Therefore, when there is a Platoon Leader casualty there's a pretty big pool of available replacements from within the unit. The US, and other forces, would replace the fallen Platoon Leader with officers from other formations (HQs, Weapons Platoon, etc.), if possible, until a replacement from an outside formation/pool could be brought in. This could be one of the things that helped contribute to Germany's well deserved advantage at preserving low level unit cohesion in the face of the massive losses they took.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

I'd have to go dig out my pre 1940 TO&E sources, but I believe it was in place at least since the 1936 expansion. My understanding is the same as JonS' in that it was an expedient measure because the Treaty of Versailles greatly restricted the number of officers (and other things, of course). What the Germans did was used their NCOs as leadership cadres for all sorts of positions that were usually performed by officers. This kept them from violating the treaty, yet having the basic infrastructure ready to support a rapid expansion in a very effective way.

Things are coming back to me as this discussion progresses, and one of them is that as the expansion got underway, a percentage of NCOs—who had been earmarked and trained earlier—were automatically promoted to officer rank.

Michael

[JG11Preusse]

Things are coming back to me as this discussion progresses, and one of them is that as the expansion got underway, a percentage of NCOs—who had been earmarked and trained earlier—were automatically promoted to officer rank.

Michael

do you talk about german army ?

[Michael Emrys]

do you talk about german army ?

That's the topic.

Michael

[JG11Preusse]

That's the topic.

Michael

ok ... because you are talking about nco´s

underofficers never where promoted automatically to officers.

i know that some stabs- , oberstabs- and hauptstabsfeldwebel had the offer to get promoted to a rank of a leutnant and a lot of the unteroffiziers ranks didnt wanted to get promoted and stayed at ther rank.

p.s. maybe due to this issue they generated the rank of a hauptstabsfeldwebel for those who dont wanted to become a leutant. not sure, can not remember exact in this case

[Narses]

I did some research and found that in the peacetime WW1 German Army plt leaders were Lts. Of course the peace time 1914 army was only about 550,000 men (backed up by 6 million trained reserves of which 3 million were older men of the Landstrum).

By 1917 Gudmundsson in his book Stormtroop Tactics, pg 105, (pub 1989) says "By this time most platoon commanders were staff sergeants (Vizefeldwebel), temporary officers (Offizierstellvertreter or Feldwebelleutnants), or very junior 2nd Lts. Most companies were commanded by second Lts, while most battalions were commanded by captains." This statement comes from a page on the introduction of the German LMG in Dec 1916 so I believe he is saying around mid 1916 at least the plt leaders were mostly NCO's or "temporary" officers (NCO).

In the 1918 Germany Army Handbook published by the US it says these Offizierstellvertreter did not receive officer privaleges. I can guess but not sure exactly what that means.

Haven't gotten to the 1930's yet. So if true in VV1 and it was true in WW2 it seems they probably did it under the restrictions of Versailles in the 20's and 30's.

[Battlefront.com]

The intent of the Treaty was to limit the size of the German Army to 100,000 men. Besides the hard cap I'm nearly positive that they instituted quotas on officer ranks to be scaled to a balanced army of 100,000 men. The Germans, however, instead worked over many years to undermine this through many methods. The planned expansion of the Reischswehr started probably before the ink on the Treaty had dried. They were just waiting for a general opportunity, or particular reason (for example, an invasion), to expand. By the time Hitler came into power the plans for rapid expansion were already 15+ years in the making. It's amazing how apparently clueless the Allies were about how quickly and effectively the Wehrmacht could expand.

Steve

[Narses]

Things are coming back to me as this discussion progresses, and one of them is that as the expansion got underway, a percentage of NCOs—who had been earmarked and trained earlier—were automatically promoted to officer rank.

Michael

Correct. In Millett & Murray's book, Military Effectiveness, Vol II, The Interwar Period, pg 245 it talks about the great expansion taking place with the Wehrmacht in the Nazi period and says, "... NCOs and reserve officers being constantly added to the active force as officers, ...".