House to House fighting.

[PLM2]

I think I read in the manual that the hunt command is very good for room clearing. That does seem to be the case but I've noticed it can be a disaster if your unit so much as spots an enemy unit before it gets inside the building because they'll stop short and engage that unit, right outside the building you were "hunting" into. So I mainly go for "quick" straight into the door. I understand it's probably best to try sending a scout team in first seeing as how 4/5 of the time they'll just get mowed down and you'd hate to lose your NCO carrying the SMG right away.

I'd really like to see some more sophisticated building clearing techniques. I wouldn't exactly expect to see the guys stack up outside the building (pretty sure they'd just get mowed down the way I see enemy shoot/view through walls) but It'd get me off if there was a "Enter and Clear" command or something along those lines, maybe even see some of the guys toss some grenades in the windows/door before going in, abstracted of course. I'm not sure if i've seen a grenade used in a building yet but it'd be the first thing I'd think of doing in that situation and it seems to be the trend reading from firsthand experiences back then. I see a lot of units start throwing grenades when the enemy is nearby in boccage but never as far as I recall when in buildings. I always remember the intense urban combat in CM1 and how you'd expect your guys to throw grenades even in the same "building"

I'd also like to see suppressed units in buildings take more of a LOS hit, I'm not quite sure if they take any currently unless they're pinned and crawling away. I wouldn't think it'd take much to keep an enemy's head from peering out the window and even seeing your guys running into the building next door, at least not shooting them.

[dieseltaylor]

Talking of buildings perhaps it helps to specify whta type you are talking about. Certainly I know of one case where the US were shooting out from the ground floor and later went up to the third floor where a German unit gunned most of them down.

As for windows as magnets. My feeling is that you stand away to one side looking obliquely out so bullets coming in at right angles are of little concern. Of course the strength of the building walls is an interest. It is not clear to me how buildings work for small arms fire which seems unduly lethal for troops inside. However I know somewhat reports less casualties the larger the building.

Certainly I have used 33 rounds of 75 HE and not knocked down a small block of flats/large house.

I always tried to avoif urban combat in the original series as I think game engines struggle with doing house to house fighting adequately.

[PLM2]

Well yes, i'd imagine you'd want to stay away from the windows. That's why I don't get why units' LOS are still pretty great in buildings when under fire. Seems like it should be worse just like for troops hunkered down in a trench.

I had my best times in urban combat in the original, playing humans in massive battles defending or attacking. You can't really play with the AI (unless the AI is defending) because the AI can't handle it so well.

I'd buy TRPs and 280m arty and register it at strategic blocks of houses, pounding them to crap after they're overrun. We had to edit the maps though and put the flags in the city, or you could basically just bypass the town because of the way those maps were generated.

[Blackcat]

Suppression, suppression, suppression! That is the key to urban fighting. First use "target" by as many squads/MGs/Vehicles as you can get LOF fire for on the building you want to take (and don't forget nearby buildings that will have LOF to the approach your assaulting squad will use). How long you keep this up for is a mater of context and judgement. If I know that there are enemy in there and I can't be sure they are all dead I will keep it up for at least a minute after they have dropped out of view.

Then I switch the overwatch units to Target Light (cease fire for any equipped with .50 call) I use quick to take the assaulting squad/team to within 10 metres of the door at that point I give them a "Target" order and a 10 second pause command (that should see grenades going through the windows) then another quick order into the building with a clear target at the final waypoint, or an area fire up to the next floor if I think I need to.

Some people advocate using "Fast" for the assaulting unit as it prevents them from stopping and returning fire if they come under attack on their approach. Using smoke can also be good to screen to actual assault, but I find it can be tricky to get it into the right place at the right time.

The above approach is my adaptation of a technique developed by Chainsaw in CMSF (see "Assaulting Buildings Fast and Agile" here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927) and I find it works pretty well. Urban combat was and is a sod in the real world and it is in CMBN, unfortuately in both it is often necessary. Good technique will minimise your casualties, but you will burn through ammo.

[c3k]

The HUNT command with a short, circular, covered arc as you enter can work. The covered arc prevents far enemy units from stopping the assault. The only drawback is the HUNT unit may end up bottlenecking near the entrance if they see enemy inside the building.

Personally, I use a variation on Blackcat's technique.

[womble]

Suppression, suppression, suppression! That is the key to urban fighting. First use "target" by as many squads/MGs/Vehicles as you can get LOF fire for on the building you want to take (and don't forget nearby buildings that will have LOF to the approach your assaulting squad will use). How long you keep this up for is a mater of context and judgement. If I know that there are enemy in there and I can't be sure they are all dead I will keep it up for at least a minute after they have dropped out of view.

Then I switch the overwatch units to Target Light (cease fire for any equipped with .50 call) I use quick to take the assaulting squad/team to within 10 metres of the door at that point I give them a "Target" order and a 10 second pause command (that should see grenades going through the windows) then another quick order into the building with a clear target at the final waypoint, or an area fire up to the next floor if I think I need to.

Some people advocate using "Fast" for the assaulting unit as it prevents them from stopping and returning fire if they come under attack on their approach. Using smoke can also be good to screen to actual assault, but I find it can be tricky to get it into the right place at the right time.

The above approach is my adaptation of a technique developed by Chainsaw in CMSF (see "Assaulting Buildings Fast and Agile" here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927) and I find it works pretty well. Urban combat was and is a sod in the real world and it is in CMBN, unfortuately in both it is often necessary. Good technique will minimise your casualties, but you will burn through ammo.

Something to be aware of while executing this technique is the suppression effects of the covering Taget Light fire on the actual assaulting element. Don't have too much friendly weight of fire on the places the assault element are going to move or be adjacent to, or they may find themselves pinned somewhere you didn't want them to end up. A squad or one tank's MGs should be enough to maintain suppression in the target AP for the time it takes to make that last rush.

A note in terms of timing: it seems to take approximately 30s for a unit to recover from 'Pinned' to 'unsuppressed' if they're taking no additional fire. This probably varies with experience or leadership, but it doesn't seem to get much shorter. So if you want to ceasefire on the objective, you've got a short window to get on top of the defenders before they un-pin.

[Blackcat]

I have yet to notice friendly "target light" fire (excluding. 50 cal) have any suppressive effect on my assault troops. Maybe I have just always been lucky, but it is something I'll now keep in mind.

You make an interesting point about the time taken to recover from pinned, I have never got that detailed. However, I never stop the suppressive fire until I am in the building either (playing WEGO does mean it is very difficult to get timings spot on, so I err on the side of caution and just use more ammo - in RT I expect one can be more precise).

[womble]

I have yet to notice friendly "target light" fire (excluding. 50 cal) have any suppressive effect on my assault troops. Maybe I have just always been lucky, but it is something I'll now keep in mind.

I'm convinced at the moment that friendly suppression is the only possible cause for what I've seen: element suppressed for no apparent incoming fire, but lots of 'bullet spatter' around them (from carelessly uncancelled 'covering fire'); morale condition worsening; stop friendly area fires on the location for immediate recovery.

You make an interesting point about the time taken to recover from pinned, I have never got that detailed. However, I never stop the suppressive fire until I am in the building either (playing WEGO does mean it is very difficult to get timings spot on, so I err on the side of caution and just use more ammo - in RT I expect one can be more precise).

Yes, it's a bit of an edge case, especially in WEGO, more something to bear in mind: if your objective is comprehensively suppressed and the assaulter is close at the start of a minute, there probably won't be any fire on them, so you can turn your covering fire elsewhere.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I have yet to notice friendly "target light" fire (excluding. 50 cal) have any suppressive effect on my assault troops.

You're lucky. I've not only noticed heavy suppression, but actual friendly fire. While playing the demo scenario I had two squads laying down suppressive fire on the rear building (one squad by the wall, one in the barn). I had a third squad Quick towards the building to kill anyone left inside. The two suppressing units didn't stop firing! Their shots were ricocheting into the assaulting squad as they were going into the building, and they kept firing at the house even after friendlies had entered.

In CMx1 units would stop firing when friendlies entered the targeted area, but that doesn't seem to be the case in CMx2.

[womble]

I was thinking while driving through the rain earlier. It's possible that the friendly fire suppression I saw was a relict of friendly Rifle Grenade near-misses. I don't think it was, but it remains a possibility that I've not eliminated.

[akd]

Friendly fire of all calibers can cause suppression. Friendly fire ricochets of all calibers can cause casualties. Do not fire into or near the same action spot a friendly unit is located in. Use cover arcs to restrain AI from doing the same.

[Blackcat]

Friendly fire of all calibers can cause suppression. Friendly fire ricochets of all calibers can cause casualties. Do not fire into or near the same action spot a friendly unit is located in. Use cover arcs to restrain AI from doing the same.

Under what circumstances do you think friendly fire of all calibres can cause suppression?

Just to test this idea out, in case it had changed from CMSF, I put a US squad in a very small building, I then had two further squads and a 30 MG fire into that building using "Target Light" from less than 25 yards for five solid minutes. No suppression and no casualties were caused.

I then put a squad just outside a building, as if they were assaulting it, and had two squads and an MG fire through them (using "Target Light") into the building. After five minutes no casualties and no suppression.

Thus I fired into and through an action spot containing a friendly unit will no ill effects. I have done so lots and lots of times in the game as well again no ill effects. So unless you can give some specific circumstances I think you are wrong on this one.

I am not prepared to be so dogmatic about ricochets. All I will say is that there were plenty in the above tests and no one got hurt.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Under what circumstances do you think friendly fire of all calibres can cause suppression?

Just to test this idea out, in case it had changed from CMSF, I put a US squad in a very small building, I then had two further squads and a 30 MG fire into that building using "Target Light" from less than 25 yards for five solid minutes. No suppression and no casualties were caused.

I then put a squad just outside a building, as if they were assaulting it, and had two squads and an MG fire through them (using "Target Light") into the building. After five minutes no casualties and no suppression.

Thus I fired into and through an action spot containing a friendly unit will no ill effects. I have done so lots and lots of times in the game as well again no ill effects. So unless you can give some specific circumstances I think you are wrong on this one.

I am not prepared to be so dogmatic about ricochets. All I will say is that there were plenty in the above tests and no one got hurt.

That's odd. I specifically remember an instance playing the demo training mission where my guys took casualties and turn and ran, even though the only people that seemed to be firing were my own men.

It was the "Road to Berlin" demo scenario. I had one squad of men behind the wall near the farmhouse, and two squads of men in the barn. I ordered the men behind the wall and one of the barn squads to area target the farmhouse itself, and ordered the second barn squad to wait 15 seconds, then Quick into the farmhouse. When the turn started the two teams began firing and the third team assaulted the house. Only one or two even made it into the house. The rest were killed or routed before they got there. I don't recall there being any enemy fire, and any enemies in the house would have surely been suppressed by 20+ Americans firing rifles and Thompsons into the place. Germany units near the crossroads on the far side of the map don't have LOS to the front of the barn. If those troops weren't killed by friendly fire, I don't know what else could have done it. I'll have to try that scenario again and see what happens.

[Blackcat]

That's odd. I specifically remember an instance playing the demo training mission where my guys took casualties and turn and ran, even though the only people that seemed to be firing were my own men.

It was the "Road to Berlin" demo scenario. I had one squad of men behind the wall near the farmhouse, and two squads of men in the barn. I ordered the men behind the wall and one of the barn squads to area target the farmhouse itself, and ordered the second barn squad to wait 15 seconds, then Quick into the farmhouse. When the turn started the two teams began firing and the third team assaulted the house. Only one or two even made it into the house. The rest were killed or routed before they got there. I don't recall there being any enemy fire, and any enemies in the house would have surely been suppressed by 20+ Americans firing rifles and Thompsons into the place. Germany units near the crossroads on the far side of the map don't have LOS to the front of the barn. If those troops weren't killed by friendly fire, I don't know what else could have done it. I'll have to try that scenario again and see what happens.

Depends what sort of fire the overwatch team were using, if it was straight "Target" then I wouldn't be surprised by the result if they had HE weapons. Also according to the manual, it is possible that units with rifle grenades will fire them even with target light - though personally I have never seen this (possibly because the only such grenades my guys seem to have are AT ones) - and they certainly didn't use UGLs with "Target Light" in CMSF.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Depends what sort of fire the overwatch team were using, if it was straight "Target" then I wouldn't be surprised by the result if they had HE weapons. Also according to the manual, it is possible that units with rifle grenades will fire them even with target light - though personally I have never seen this (possibly because the only such grenades my guys seem to have are AT ones) - and they certainly didn't use UGLs with "Target Light" in CMSF.

I think you're right. I just tested it and using Target Light causes no casualties and no suppression. But I tried using Target Light with a Sherman and men in the fire area were very suppressed and cowering like crazy (MG fire only, no HE).

I know for certain that one of the times I've seen this type of behavior I was using a Sherman's .50 cal to suppress the enemy. The other times, perhaps I was using an MG unit in addition to rifle teams. I can't recall for sure, but my testing shows that, at the very least, a .50 cal will cause suppression. Whether .30 cal, rifle grenades, bazooka rounds, etc. do as well, I do not know and don't have time to test right now.

[Blackcat]

I think you're right. I just tested it and using Target Light causes no casualties and no suppression. But I tried using Target Light with a Sherman and men in the fire area were very suppressed and cowering like crazy (MG fire only, no HE).

I know for certain that one of the times I've seen this type of behavior I was using a Sherman's .50 cal to suppress the enemy. The other times, perhaps I was using an MG unit in addition to rifle teams. I can't recall for sure, but my testing shows that, at the very least, a .50 cal will cause suppression. Whether .30 cal, rifle grenades, bazooka rounds, etc. do as well, I do not know and don't have time to test right now.

50 cal and up will damage your own people as will any round that goes bang including grenades, rifle grenades and bazookas. An unbuttoned Sherman (and Stuarts and no doubt others) firing on "Target Light" will fire its 50 cal, buttoned then its fire is .30 only. Something to remember when using your tanks to shoot infantry onto an objective.

[akd]

Under what circumstances do you think friendly fire of all calibres can cause suppression?

Just to test this idea out, in case it had changed from CMSF, I put a US squad in a very small building, I then had two further squads and a 30 MG fire into that building using "Target Light" from less than 25 yards for five solid minutes. No suppression and no casualties were caused.

I then put a squad just outside a building, as if they were assaulting it, and had two squads and an MG fire through them (using "Target Light") into the building. After five minutes no casualties and no suppression.

Thus I fired into and through an action spot containing a friendly unit will no ill effects. I have done so lots and lots of times in the game as well again no ill effects. So unless you can give some specific circumstances I think you are wrong on this one.

I am not prepared to be so dogmatic about ricochets. All I will say is that there were plenty in the above tests and no one got hurt.

10-15 seconds of coax fire from a friendly tank:

Casualty from ricochet from friendly tank coax:

[Blackcat]

Akd,

Sorry, I can't reproduce what you get and have never seen such results. I just put three minutes of co-ax fire through a building from two Shermans, no suppression, no casualties. We must be playing different games, or maybe the rules are different for the German side.

[ClarkWGriswold]

50 cal and up will damage your own people as will any round that goes bang including grenades, rifle grenades and bazookas. An unbuttoned Sherman (and Stuarts and no doubt others) firing on "Target Light" will fire its 50 cal, buttoned then its fire is .30 only. Something to remember when using your tanks to shoot infantry onto an objective.

I was unable to get any kills using a Sherman's .50 cal firing upon my own men. Not even a kill from a ricochet (I tested this with guys lined up against a wall, being fired at from behind, so they were completely exposed to direct fire and ricochets). Suppression and plenty of cowering, yes. Actual kills from direct fire or richchets, no.

Edit: I take that back! I tried this again and killed or injured my entire squad in under a minute! Tried it three times with three different squads and all three took HEAVY casualties very quickly. Sherman was using target light and firing with the pintle .50, the bow gun, and the turret MG.

Edit2: This is really easy to test. Load up "Road to Berlin" in the demo, move the three squads you're given over to the wall of the house on the right, turn your Sherman 90 degrees right and order Target Light where your guys are standing. They'll be mowed down in no time.

[Blackcat]

Akd,

There may well be different rules at play for the German side. I just repeated my Sherman test but this time used two MKIVs with a German Pioneer squad as the target. All OK indoors but ourside in the "assault" position I saw cowering and casualties, possibly because of ricochets. More work needed I think.

[CharlieMike24]

No wonder the German's lost the war!

[ClarkWGriswold]

I don't think there are different rules at play for the Germans. See my post above (#19). I can get put some serious hurt on my American GIs by area firing using a Target Light at their position. I was able to kill or injure every single member of a squad in less than a minute using nothing but a single Sherman and Target Light.

Small arms (smaller than .50 cal) do not seem to cause injuries or fatalities, but they definitely cause suppression. I ran the same testing using one rifle squad, two rifle squads, and a single HMG squad (M1919 .30 cal). In all of those cases I could easily suppress the squad in the target area in a short period of time. Most of the time the unit receiving fire would be Pinned in short order. No casualties taken, but serious suppression and morale hits, for certain.

[akd]

Akd,

There may well be different rules at play for the German side. I just repeated my Sherman test but this time used two MKIVs with a German Pioneer squad as the target. All OK indoors but ourside in the "assault" position I saw cowering and casualties, possibly because of ricochets. More work needed I think.

There are not different rules. I tested in both v100 (previous were from latest beta) and on lower difficulty settings. Same outcome: friendly rifle-caliber (and smaller) fire causes suppression.

MG and Rifle Squad target light on own HQ in v1.00, "veteran" difficulty:

[ClarkWGriswold]

friendly rifle-caliber (and smaller) fire causes suppression.

I'm seeing the same thing. It doesn't happen in 100% of situations, but it definitely happens often. .30 cal and smaller rounds cause suppression. .50 cal and larger cause casualties. I haven't yet tested grenades, rifle grenades, etc., but I'm guessing they'll cause casualties too.

[Blackcat]

AKD,

If 30 cal etc. cause suppression why don't I see it in my games and my tests? Please can you send me a save file which shows me what you are doing to get these results for the US side because as I say I can't reproduce them.

I have been assaulting buildings, which is where this started, in CMSF and CMBN and have never yet taken suppression or casualties from my own side's small arms when they are used in supporting (i.e. suppress the enemy) targets, nor afterwards when I have taken the building and the suppression fire is continuing. So I must be doing something different to you.