Bolt Action Garand

[Gen. J-sun]

While testing rifle grenades I observed the M7 was being fired and cycled like a bolt action rifle by the mortar ammo bearer. Additionally stranger regardless of the circumstance the first rifle grenade fired is the AT round even if against infantry in the open seems like an inappropriate use of ammo.

Save available.

[gunnergoz]

IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong here) the Garand had to have a special round inserted manually in the chamber in order to project the rifle grenade; you did not use the regular ball ammo to launch the grenade. The gestures you are seeing may represent the manual loading of that special rifle grenade round.

I used to collect inert ordnance and one item I had was a new Garand training rifle grenade in the original heavy cardboard shipping tube; besides the training grenade it came with one or two of these special rounds in the tube with a warning not to use regular ammo to fire the training rifle grenade.

As for shooting off the AT round first, it does seem a shame but I also seem to recall that it had an HE value as well as its AT use, just like the bazooka round did.

[womble]

IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong here) the Garand had to have a special round inserted manually in the chamber in order to project the rifle grenade; you did not use the regular ball ammo to launch the grenade. The gestures you are seeing may represent the manual loading of that special rifle grenade round.

I used to collect inert ordnance and one item I had was a new Garand training rifle grenade in the original heavy cardboard shipping tube; besides the training grenade it came with one or two of these special rounds in the tube with a warning not to use regular ammo to fire the training rifle grenade.

I think that's correct. Some RGs used a bullet capture, others used blanks. The M7 was the latter type. I bet GIs didn't carry clips loaded with blanks

[gunnergoz]

I think that's correct. Some RGs used a bullet capture, others used blanks. The M7 was the latter type. I bet GIs didn't carry clips loaded with blanks

Now that you mention it, the special rifle rounds did have a crimped end, much like blanks. Yep, don't want to get those mixed up with the ball ammo when you go after Fritz in the down and dirty!

[YankeeDog]

The rifle grenade mechanism also interfered with the gas return on the semi-auto mechanism of the Garand; the bolt did not cycle automatically when you fired a rifle grenade and the spent round stayed in the chamber.

So even if a GI was planning on firing off a series of rifle grenades, and had a clip of blanks loaded, he would still have to manually cycle the bolt.

[gunnergoz]

The rifle grenade mechanism also interfered with the gas return on the semi-auto mechanism of the Garand; the bolt did not cycle automatically when you fired a rifle grenade and the spent round stayed in the chamber.

So even if a GI was planning on firing off a series of rifle grenades, and had a clip of blanks loaded, he would still have to manually cycle the bolt.

Well that would explain all the frenzied fumbling around with the bolt, all right. M-1 Thumb, anyone?

[YankeeDog]

From what I've read, especially later in the ETO, some platoons chose to do an ad hoc organization where they concentrated all of their rifle grenades in a "grenadier team" -- from what I've read, often a two-man team, with one designated grenadier who carried the M7-equipped rifle pre-loaded with blanks, as well as a secondary firearm to fire normal bullets if he could scrounge one. The second guy in the team was the ammo bearer with a big sack of rifle grenades.

I assume all this fumbling with blank cartridges and the like is probably why some platoons chose to do it this way -- better to have one guy in the squad specialize in this job. The middle of the firefight is not the best time for a squad member to be fumbling around in their pockets, looking for a blank cartridge.

It also seems like platoons organized this way used their rifle grenade teams more like an improvised version of the brit 50mm mortar team - mostly for short-range indirect fire.

[Michael Emrys]

It also seems like platoons organized this way used their rifle grenade teams more like an improvised version of the brit 50mm mortar team - mostly for short-range indirect fire.

Probably a good thing to have in urban fighting.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

As a side note, has anybody actually seen U.S. Infantry use the "66mm HE" rifle grenade in the game yet?

I've had squads pop off their AT rifle grenade a few times, mostly at enemy infantry in buildings, but I have yet to spot a squad using an HE rifle grenade, even though squads usually start a scenario carrying 3.

I've also checked ammo loads at the end of scenarios, just in case I missed something, and all my squads still seem to be carrying the 3 they started with...

[Michael Emrys]

I don't recall seeing any of my men use them, but I definitely saw the enemy send a few my way. Never seemed to hit close to any of my men, but the shooters were poor quality troops.

Michael

[Aldaros]

As a side note, has anybody actually seen U.S. Infantry use the "66mm HE" rifle grenade in the game yet?

Yes, they will use it; just double-checked by setting up a squad with three 66mm HE rounds and ordering them to target a wall about 70m front of them. The grenadier used all three rounds within about fifteen seconds. That said, they were missing their AT grenade (and had no casualties), so they must have already used that on some other infantry (there were no hostile vehicles on the map).

I don't remember the last time I saw a squad use a rifle grenade without being issued a blind-fire target, though.

[YankeeDog]

Good to know; thanks.

I don't usually do area fire much with my squads, so this may be why I haven't seen it -- I do most of my area fire with tanks and MG teams.

[womble]

I've found that unless you specifically Target Light with elements that have rifle grenades, they burn through them with gay abandon. Hence always splitting off AT Teams so I've got control and don't have the stoopid dogfaces firing HE in the vicinity of their mates.

[MengJiao]

I don't remember the last time I saw a squad use a rifle grenade without being issued a blind-fire target, though.

They will do it occasionally. I'm never sure what gets into them since I usually notice the rifle grenades uselessly arc-ing at inexplicable targets.

[Michael Emrys]

I expect that putting accurate fire on a target with a rifle grenade required a certain knack as well as experience.

Michael

[Gen. J-sun]

For clarity sake I am talking about the M7 firing AP rounds and not the rifle grenade, did those not cycle semi-automatically as well? I can say with certainty that the gunner was firing bullets and not the grenade.

[YankeeDog]

For clarity sake I am talking about the M7 firing AP rounds and not the rifle grenade, did those not cycle semi-automatically as well? I can say with certainty that the gunner was firing bullets and not the grenade.

AP rounds? Do you mean Armor Piercing, or Anti-Personnel? AP can stand for either of these things... What are you referring to? The M7 is a muzzle-mounted rifle grenade launcher for the M1 Garand, so if you are talking about the M7 you are, by definition, talking about rifle grenades, not lead bullets...

There was a .30-'06 armor piercing round commonly used in WWII, and as I recall it was often issued to BAR teams, but AFAIK soldiers with Garands did not usually carry AP bullets, and I've never seen anything indicating that AP bullets are being carried or used by U.S. riflemen in the game.... the vast majority of the time, your plain vanilla rifleman would be firing plain old M2 ball ammo. But at any rate, the .30-'06 armor piercing round did behave normally as far as loading and the semi-auto mechanism is concerned.

As for rifle grenades, there were a variety of rifle grenades that could be fired from the M7 grenade launcher adapter, including a HEAT anti-tank rifle grenades, and a couple of types of fragmentation anti-personnel rifle grenades. CMBN depicts both HEAT and Frag types of rifle grenades.

All of these rifle grenades used the same M7 muzzle adapter, required that a blank charge be loaded into the chamber, and when firing any of them, the semi-auto action did not work; the bolt had to be cycled manually.

[Gen. J-sun]

Ah I see, the UI names it an M7 not being an expert I thought that was a modified version of the Garand itself. The gunner was firing the M2 30 cal rounds and cycling the bolt between shots.

[gunnergoz]

For clarity sake I am talking about the M7 firing AP rounds and not the rifle grenade, did those not cycle semi-automatically as well? I can say with certainty that the gunner was firing bullets and not the grenade.

The M7 is an anti-tank rifle grenade, not a .30 cal AP round.

Others beat me to it but you get the idea.

[YankeeDog]

Ah I see, the UI names it an M7 not being an expert I thought that was a modified version of the Garand itself. The gunner was firing the M2 30 cal rounds and cycling the bolt between shots.

He would have to if the M7 adapter was still mounted on the weapon, the adapter covers the gas return hole in the barrel and disables the semi-auto mechanism. Otherwise, the weapon can't effectively launch the grenade.

In order to use the rifle semi-auto again, he has to remove the M7 from the muzzle.

Installing or removing the M7 adapter only takes a few seconds, but nevertheless this is probably a major reason why apparently some rifle grenadiers chose to carry two rifles, one with the adapter and one without, if they could scrounge an extra.

[Michael Emrys]

That guy firing it from the shoulder is going to be pretty sore in the morning! Not nearly as bad as a Japanese knee mortar though.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

That guy firing it from the shoulder is going to be pretty sore in the morning! Not nearly as bad as a Japanese knee mortar though.

Michael

Depends on how far he pushes the grenade down onto the adapter; there were 6 rings, IIRC, and the farther down you pushed the grenade, the higher the launch velocity.

At the lowest setting, recoil was pretty light, but range was very short. All the way down, the theoretical max range was 350m, but you had to launch with the butt of the rifle braced on the ground.

[gunnergoz]

So that's what the rings were for...thanks YD, good bit of info that.

[hoolaman]

Now that you mention it, the special rifle rounds did have a crimped end, much like blanks. Yep, don't want to get those mixed up with the ball ammo when you go after Fritz in the down and dirty!

I think its guaranteed to be more disatrous to mix up the two and fire a live round into the back of a mounted rifle grenade.

[argie]

Nothing too dramatic could happen: a few burns at most. The bullet would go through the grenade without it exploding.