LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Well, I just had a city fight where the AI attacked me with quite a lot of M10's and infantry. One thing I noticed was that the M10's took an immense amount of hits into the open topped turret, sometimes visually going through the crew models, yet, despite literally hundreds of hits into the open turret, they only seldom lost a crewmember. They usually bailed due to morale drop and not from having the turret crew killed. I've experienced a similar thing with Marders. So my question is, are crewmembers of AFV's handled in the same way as infantry are? And if yes, why is it that they're so incredibly hard to kill from above (behind for the Marder)? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Well, I just had a city fight where the AI attacked me with quite a lot of M10's and infantry. One thing I noticed was that the M10's took an immense amount of hits into the open topped turret, sometimes visually going through the crew models, yet, despite literally hundreds of hits into the open turret, they only seldom lost a crewmember. They usually bailed due to morale drop and not from having the turret crew killed. I've experienced a similar thing with Marders. So my question is, are crewmembers of AFV's handled in the same way as infantry are? And if yes, why is it that they're so incredibly hard to kill from above (behind for the Marder)? I'm not sure what you mean here. So are grenades being dropped into the open turret with no result? What do you mean by 'handled the same way as infantry'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 I'm not sure what you mean here. So are grenades being dropped into the open turret with no result? Didn't see grenades dropped at all but I saw lot's of small arms fire going through the individual crewmembers and also saw loads of "Top blabla hit >PENETRATION<" text. What do you mean by 'handled the same way as infantry'? What I mean is if the crew of a vehicle are hit by small arms fire in the same way that infantry/ATG crews are hit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Hmm, okay, so what you are talking about here is infantry etc located in the upper stories of buildings firing bullets into the open tops of vehicles like M10s, Marders, Halftracks, etc? I'm not actually sure how the crews are handled in that situation .... they probably aren't handled like infantry but have some sort of crew protection bonus from the vehicle and are treated like crew exposed tank commanders. Open topped vehicles 'in game' can be 'buttoned up' to an extent and they look like they are all hunched down inside the vehicle. If the small arms firing is coming from above though it shouldn't matter, although that might not be modeled so I'm not sure. I don't recall anyone actually testing that specific situation though so it might be worth a look. Perhaps it would be helpful if you wanted to set up a range of some sort in the editor and do some deliberate testing on casualties caused vs open topped vehicles with small arms from above and compare that to small arms vs open topped at the same or lower level. See if there is any substantial difference. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Was the battle played Realtime or WeGo? That doesn't affect the outcome of engagements but graphics of tracers might be a bit off. I recall in CMSF seeing Syrian HMG fire passing through a tall stone wall, which its not supposed to do. I was assured it was only an affect of WeGo playback, that the bullets really were bouncing off walls like they ought, and as they would've been seen to be doing playing Reatime. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 It was realtime. Anyway, I had two entire companies in a "line" of multi-story buildings (3-6 stories) which got rushed by ~10 M10's which all drove up and stopped ~5-10m away from the buildings (I really don't know what the AI was thinking there ). I had probably 2-5 squads and HMG's shoot into each turret with only very little effect, after 5 minutes of engagement and constant shooting (the street was FULL of tracers with literally hundreds of bullets hitting the M10's from above) only two M10 had sustained crew casualties and bailed, which I suspect was actually down to rifle grenades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PondScum Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 As a counter-example, I just had an infantry team sidle up to some bocage only to realize there was a Marder on the other side of it. They let loose with everything they had, causing two frontal penetrations from rifle/BAR fire, and then finished it off with a grenade (all within 5 seconds). I believe *targeting* tanks at close range may be counter-productive. Later in the same scenario a squad stumbled across a PzIV. Tube-guy got off a credible side-penetrating hit, and then the turn ended. On the next turn I ordered the squad to target the PzIV - which resulted in tube-guy switching to his carbine and blazing away! Sigh. Maybe explicit targeting suppresses grenade-throwing also? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 I didn't issue a single targeting order since the tanks were all around the houses making explicit fireorders counter productive. And grenades are completely out of the window, I'm not talking about close quarters effectiveness of infantry vs tanks, I'm only talking about small arms fire going straight into the fighting compartment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 *BUMP* Any news on this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 It is possible that the game is abstracting cover for the crewmembers caused by them hunching down inside the vehicle, 'cowering' if you like. This is not shown in game but you can imagine that as their suppression levels rise, the game might let some hits turn into near misses. The trade off of course is that thier actual ability to fight goes way down. That is all based off my CMSF experience - I havn't managed to play a lot of CMBN yet! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 it's not the game's fault if you choose to play it wrong. what next, you complain that the men didn't pour hot oil over the M10s? if you are looking for a castle defence game then CMBN is not for you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 it's not the game's fault if you choose to play it wrong. what next, you complain that the men didn't pour hot oil over the M10s? if you are looking for a castle defence game then CMBN is not for you. Please don't make a fool out of yourself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 It is possible that the game is abstracting cover for the crewmembers caused by them hunching down inside the vehicle, 'cowering' if you like. This is not shown in game but you can imagine that as their suppression levels rise, the game might let some hits turn into near misses. Thanks, would be nice if we'd have a definitive word of this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Please don't make a fool out of yourself. lol i bet i could beat you 10-0 in Bowmaster 2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Does sound like something funky is going on here... even if the crew were able to get far enough down into the vehicle to avoid getting directly hit by small arms fire, if the shooter(s) were high enough to be able to shoot bullets down into the open top, I would think that interior ricochets and bullets shattering on the inside of the armor plate would start causing casualties pretty quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Seems to be a bug. Reported. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AslakH Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I once saw an M10 take two 81mm Mortar rounds DIRECTLY on the turret roof (or directly into the fighting compartment), and not a single crewmember was wounded. And I hit the M10 quite hard with mortar fire. It survived without a scratch. I don't use armor anymore in CMBN. I've had so many anomalies with spotting, hit detection, NO damage bugs, etc. (I had a StuG fire at an M8 HMC and getting hit after hit, penetrating all over the vehicle. It had all green boxes, no suppression and managed to KO the StuG after recieving 10+ direct hits at 150m. This happens all the time). Imma hold off on the nerdy testing and ranting about the game. I am sure it will be patched. When I see a bug I just shrug and think "Oh well", because I don't have a save game. What am I? 60? RT for the win. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavicula_Nox Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Yeah, it does seem odd. I made a test mission where I placed a line of buildings between 3 and 6th level and placed 2 Grenadier companies within them in a completely random pattern. I then placed a company of M10s + dismounted HQ elements (= 12 M10s) within 10-20m of the buildings and the Axis were massacred. I am currently uploading the video to Youtube and will post when it is finished, but here is the AAR screen: Here it is: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 That's exactly what I'm talking about, MG and smg fire raining down into the open fighting compartments of tanks without even scaving the crew in most cases. I guess that the 15 casualties the M10's sustained were the entire crews of the three knocked out M10's. Only difference between your and my scenario is that my engagement lasted for more than 5 minutes, with no knocked out tanks after the rifle grenades were out. I wouldn't be suprised if the three M10's were knocked out by rifle grenades rather than small arms either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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