Naval artillery support

[Broadsword56]

I'm pleased we'll have the ability to use off-map, offshore naval artillery support in CMBN. But does anyone know specifically how long into the Normandy campaign the naval gunfire was available? Was it just on D-Day and a few days afterward? Or all the way through July? And how readily available was it? After all, there were only so many guns on the ships, and they had to prioritize which support requests to fulfill, when probably there were ground commanders from Caen to Carentan who all would have wanted those big guns on call.

[Lt Belenko]

I think it would depend on several factors.

a. When the ships ran out of bullets

b. When the troops advanced out of range.

c. When the generals figured enough army artillery was on the beaches.

Delete item c, you can never have too much arty support

A quick Wiki search on the USS Texas said out of range on 15 June. But they returned for Cherbourg 25 June.

[Magpie_Oz]

I think you can pretty safely say that if an engagement was within range of the coast that Naval Gunfire Support would possibly be available.

A similar wiki of the HMS Warspite shows her continuing to support operations in Holland.

[Staffan]

Considering that naval artillery is any infantrymans wet dream for support (Ask any marine about BB support) mainly because even light naval guns 3-5 inch on destroyers are way more effective than most ground artillery, both in firecontrol and in volume of fire (16 inch 50 cal on the Iowa class BB (only class with the 50 cals) had a reload time of about 30 seconds and could hit targets up to 20 miles inland each broadside consisted of 9x2000 lb shells it could ruin most peoples days when you drop VW's on them and even filling those things with HE.

Also magazines on ships are fairly large in excess of 200 shells per 16 inch mount, then you have combat support ships that kind top off ammunition. Lighters guns have vast increases in ammunition.

Staffan

[MikeyD]

That's an interesting question. Remember, a channel storm on June 19 was bad enough to wreck the Omaha beach mulberry harbour. I'd hate to have been in a medium cruiser sitting at anchor just offshore during that storm.

[Staffan]

In a CL you could turn against the wind, you couldn't give any support accurately though. The Mulberrys lacked the maneuverability

Admitted being on a DD or DE would propably ruin ones feelings for a hot dinner, with soup!

I have gone through rather unpleasant winds in coasters and if the master is even remotely competent it is possible to work in those conditions

Staffan

[Michael Emrys]

...each broadside consisted of 9x2000 lb shells...

Yes BUT...when delivering on-call fire, they seem to have fired only one tube at a time. At least that's what the films I have seen show. Pre-invasion softening up would fire an entire turret at a time and often complete broadsides, but on-call fire was different.

Michael

[Staffan]

Normally you would fire one tube (Or in BB slang rifle) at a time, mainly to spare some of the stress in firing, but also to keep a stable firingplatform. (A fun fact regarding the use of sequential firing is the forced use by the italian ships, there mount were fairly poorly constructed so you had to fire sequentially to avoid disrupting own fire). Sequential firing also spares the blastbags on the barrels, and lastly you get a longer effect inland. With regard to naval rifles there are a lot of extra factors involved in the firing because of the range, that can also contribute to sequential firing.

Staffan

[Broadsword56]

I think you can pretty safely say that if an engagement was within range of the coast that Naval Gunfire Support would possibly be available.

OK, it sounds like June 15 was the cutoff date for availability. But what was "in range" from where the naval guns were? Could they reach all the way to St. Lo, for example? Can anyone show a maximum effective range line on a Normandy map, or quote a distance figure that I could plot on Google Earth?

[Staffan]

Broadsword, 14 and 16 inch rifles have effective ranges of about 20 NM.

the US 5 inch 38 Cal was no good over 20.000 yards so that is the extremes.

Staffan

[Magpie_Oz]

That's an interesting question. Remember, a channel storm on June 19 was bad enough to wreck the Omaha beach mulberry harbour. I'd hate to have been in a medium cruiser sitting at anchor just offshore during that storm.

Just as an aside, I don't think that any of the Navy Gunline was at anchor.

[Staffan]

Just as an aside, I don't think that any of the Navy Gunline was at anchor.

I never heard of any warships being at anchor (In the 20th and 21st centuries) while providing gunfire support. You need to be able to do maneuvering and have steerage so you can defend yourself and also stay flexible.

I'd like naval gunfire support in CMSF though the new 5inch guided rnds and LASM would be cool, but outside if timeframe.

Staffan

[dkchapuis]

Broadsword, 14 and 16 inch rifles have effective ranges of about 20 NM.

the US 5 inch 38 Cal was no good over 20.000 yards so that is the extremes.

Staffan

How accurate are those big guns at 15-20 miles. Could they accurately land a shell in a 25m square? How much does rough seas affect this?

[Noltyboy]

How accurate are those big guns at 15-20 miles. Could they accurately land a shell in a 25m square? How much does rough seas affect this?

Hah thats a bone of contention!

[Staffan]

How accurate are those big guns at 15-20 miles. Could they accurately land a shell in a 25m square? How much does rough seas affect this?

In the first Desert Storm they could take out HAS at those ranges, and you have to remember that they are designed to hit other targets moving rapidly and maneuvering, the salvos are made to create a spred (new Jersey delivered 210 tons of ordnance over a nine minute firemission in lebanon in the 80's)

The firecontrol systems are a lot more advanced than those on groundbased systems.

With regard to seas, the guns are stabilised you need very rough seas state 5-6 to seriously impair performance.

Staffan

[JasonC]

First, they continued to support up through late July and the actual breakout. The fighting in the British sector around Caen, in particular, remained in range of naval fire support throughout the entire campaign in Normandy proper, until the front gave way after Cobra.

Second, most of the naval gunfire in that long post invasion period was provided by cruisers, plus a few British "monitors" mounting single turrets of 2 15 inch guns, plus a few battleships (HMS Rodney e.g.). The main use was not reactive fire, however, it was prep bombardment for the big push offensives, along with major airstrikes and artillery prep etc. There were forward naval gunfire support parties, and they also used spotting planes to direct fires, especially counterbattery or shooting up IDed HQs and the like. Basically, they were being used for deep reach and the shoots were focused on targets far from friendlies where misses wouldn't kill a whole friendly company...

One other major use was when the US took Cherbourg, the fleet dualed all the shore batteries there and silenced most of them, as ground forces reached the fortified lines around the city. But it was basically a counterbattery and "seige" use, not a reactive one on the scale of a CM battlefield.

You can find cases where e.g. German armor counterattacks ran into reactive cruiser fire (21st Panzer and 12SS early, also near the end of the German counterattack during Epsom), and it was good at stripping them and convincing them to call things off. But they were not being used as a scalpel to take out point targets, unlike ordinary div arty. That was div arty's job...

[vetacon]

There are, however, some interesting examples of naval guns being used in a reactive role. This account of the 101st's actions north of Carentan on D-Day describes the USS Quincy providing fire support to suppress mortar and 88 fire (p32 onwards):

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/WWII/Lock/lock.htm

NB - there are also some amusing typograhpical errors in that document, the best of which is:

"By a fluke, a part of the leading serial, including the regimental coriander, dropped nearly on the right ground". Love it.

[Staffan]

USS New Jersey was used shortly in Vietnam, she was recomissioned on 8th April 1968 and used to provide supporting gunfire (80% of targets attacked in Vietnam was within reach of the 16 inch mk7 gun on the Iowas) her appearance was however shortlived diplomats claimed her gunfire was destabilizing the situation and provoking a "hostile superpower response" so she was withdrawn again and placed back in reserve on December 17th 1968.

The accuracy of ship artillery is better than land artillery it has to be by design. you are hurling shells from a vessel moving at speeds greater than 25 knots while maneuvering against tarets doing the same thing.

A british officer that was involved in fighting in the '82 Falklands war was once quoted in lamenting the fact that the Royal Navy had to few guns to lend in gunfire support.

Also having heard accounts fron the effect of just the 3 inch Oto Melara I worked on in the RDN I wouldn't want to be were it hit and it only has a 9 nautical mile range (about 18kyds) and it should have been quite a sight and rather devastating on the shore. (I'm glad to see the RDN having adopted the US Mk45 on the newer ships and even making modular mountings that can accomodate both 3 and 5 inch weapons depending on the circumstances.

Oh btw we were capable of faster and more accurate gunfire than the 155mm M-109s from the danish Army, and also a greater volume of fire. 85rnds pr minute

Staffan