TK Thunder mission one after-thoughts

[Major SNAFU]

Had a good bit of fun with this one. Got a Total victory 2 KIA 5 wounded vs. 174 KIA 87 wounded on Elite and 19 minutes left on the clock, but a couple of things caught me by surprise:

1) The Abrams tanks did a goofy little dance that I could not figure out until I realized it was because they couldn't run *over* the barrier in the middle of the highway. I figured they would crawl over it.

2) The FIST Stryker is gutless wonder. Every time I tried to get it to position itself hull down so the spotters could do their work it would pop smoke and run away. But the infantry Strykers positioned around it would stand their ground just fine. The best eyes I have and they don't have the stones to do their job... This was after 90%+ of all threats were either knocked out or degraded. I got more use out of a dismounted C2 directing arty than the dismounted spotters (which for some reason don't seem to take a radio with them). I finally got the FIST on top of the berm and got it to work out well towards the end of the battle.

3) I lost 2 Strykers towards the end to a hull down tank. But here is the kicker, I had at least 10 units watching the area where the tank was, including an Abrams that got within 50 meters of it. But it wasn't until an assault team got within 40 meters of the tank that it fired at anything or was noticed by any of my forces. And only 2 of the ten units all covering the same area (and within 100 meters) noticed the tank after it had fired its main gun twice. This from the same set of Abrams that seemed to notice every other tank, bunker, etc and take them out even across the length of the map. I really don't understand how this happened and I don't understand why that Syrian tank sat there doing nothing for 40+minutes while every units around it was destroyed or severely reduced. My forces seemed to be able to see the smallest reduced C2 force in a trench, but they couldn't see the tank 15 meter behind it even though I had units looking at the area from about a 160 degree spread. I was pretty cranked.

But still, my losses were light and once the arty really kicked in it was a done deal.

On to the airport.

[Damian90]

I'm using different tactic.

M1A1SA's number 3 and 4 are taking position on sand berm, but in hull down position, so they are well covered and provide overwatch.

M1A1SA's CO and XO are send on the road but this is the later part.

Firstly I send small anti-tank teams with Javelins on to sandberm, but on such positions that they are covered, they destroy all enemy tanks and bunkers + i would recommend to have at least two Javelins for two enemy tanks near outpost gate.

So when javelins teams ends their job, tanks are rushing in to their positions. Remember to keep CO anc XO M1A1's on the road but still behind sand berm, so their flank is protected against incoming enemy tanks counterattack.

Then it is time for M1128's, rush them on the other side of the raod so they can provide fire support.

I also reccomend to position artillery observers on the sand berm but far from tanks on their overwatch positions. And use extensively artillery support, destroy any suspicious position where enemy can hide, also trenches.

Infantry in their Strykers should be moved slowly with fire support from M1128's and CO and XO M1A1's.

Key solutions are.

Allways face Your tanks frontal armor to enemy.

Use artillery fire.

Suppress enemy.

Sometimes my tactic was so good that besides minor damage on vehicles, I have no casualties and enemy was only few survivors.

[Lanzfeld]

I like to read this stuff. Please give your thoughts on the airport mission.

[Damian90]

There is no way to finish airport mission without casualties. M1128's are not well armored and have only 18 rounds, it is not to well suited for envirvorment full of RPG-29's.

What I can say, it is not bad idea to position ICV Strykers behind wall around airbase, their RWS have LOS above wall so they can provide rather effective suppresive fire.

The biggest problem are gates to airbase, the one closer deploying position is well under fire arcs of enemy forces, the second one near tower is safer but there is IED placed there. So the best way is perhaps to make Your own entrance.

Mission is hard, low artillery support (mortars only, and they are low on ammo) + AH-64's without Hellfires, no MBT's and IFV's.

Good idea is to use Javelins, especially on some high placed overwatch position.

[Major SNAFU]

Interesting tactic.

I found that the C2 unit associated with the Spotter also acquitted himself well with the Javelin. Took out a tank, a machine gun bunker and a ATGM while also spotting 81mm strikes.

I have been finding in general that the C2 units can effectively employ their Javelins (although they seem to miss more often), which is great because I like to keep everyone gainfully employed on the battlefield.

I used the Abrams around the berm first. They took out all tanks, bunkers, etc. within 5-6 minutes. Then I split them in half and had 2 move along the berm back to the right to watch the depression where I thought reinforcements might show up (and was right). Not one piece of armor (except for the problematic one mentioned above lived for more than a few minutes once they were noticed. Well, there was one other T-55 on the far side that, after watching all of this buddies get nailed near instantly, must have decided that staying put and praying might just be the only way out of his predicament.)

If I had not had the Abrams, I would have used the Javelins as you did. In my case, I find that I am using the Javelins to take out enemy HMG and LMG positions in buildings once I have spotted them. I also use them to knock the sides out of buildings and then pour in an awful amount of 12.7mm HMG fire.

After walking the arty along the trenches, I then walked it along the sides of the two barracks. That pretty much ended the affair just as I was beginning to assault the first trench positions with infantry (and found the tank mentioned above). I ended with most of my Abrams low on ammo (1 out) and 1/2 of my javelins still available to wipe out any remaining resistance in the barracks.

(Note that I interpreted "secure" the barracks in extreme terms i.e. blow up what must be blown up and a collapsing building is good for your morale and bad for the OPFOR inside)

I never employed the mobile guns effectively as I am still figuring out when they truly come into their own. I feel they are almost like a one or two shot wonder and I wouldn't spend a huge amount of effort getting them into a good position for what few rounds they can deliver. A hand full of Javelins or some more mortars would be more welcome to my style.

I have no doubt I could execute this again with no loss, but it would run the timer down to 5 or so minutes.

[Lt. Smash]

I used virtually the same tactics as Damian90. I put my F/O and C2 on the berm and started the mission by observing the enemy. I had some preplanned arty targeting the trenches. And I moved my M1s towards the highway with the intent of busting out and engaging the biggest threat. I equipped some of my squads with Javelins and split of the A/T teams. I expected there to be entrenched armor which they would take out. As my spotters saw the static and mobile armor, I moved my A/T teams up on the berm. The Javelins made quick work of the armor and bunkers.

Next, I moved my M1s out to surpress the enemy infantry while I recombined my squads. With the squads combined and loaded, I moved them out with the MGSs in support (the M1s were reaking havoc on the trenches). I used smoke to try and block anybody in the fort from getting a good shot on the Strykers. Meanwhile, I shifted my M1's attention to the two eastern-most towers and had one of them blow a hole in the east side wall. I used my Strykers to suppress the eastern buildings as I pulled up to the breach. I unloaded the infantry and entered the fort.

Once in the fort, I was able to get to the upper floors and engage enemy in the trenches to the north and south of the fort fairly easily. I got a little sloppy as I started to cross fort to the barracks. I took a couple of casualties that were unnecessary but I quickly suppressed the enemy in the barracks. Once these guys were suppressed, the Syrians surrendered for a Total Victory. I don't remember how much time was left of the clock but time was not an issue.

I did manage to lose 1 M1. I watched the replay a bunch of times but all I saw was *boom*. I don't think it was a T-62. Maybe it was a well placed ATGM shot. Beats me. In the end, I had 6 KIA and 11 wounded to 184 KIA, 90 wounded, 82 missing and 17 tanks lost.

Ash Shammas (the airport mission) was a learning experience for me. I went into it way to cocky. My original plan was to have 1st Platoon take the Airbase HQ, the 2nd Platoon breach the wall by the Barracks and keep 3rd Platoon in reserve. 2nd Platoon did a great job but I was too aggressive with 1st Platoon. My MOUT skills were not what they needed to be, and they got chewed up. Making matters worse, I held 3rd Platoon back too long. When I finally got 3rd Platoon engaged, I was down to two half-squads and a few scragglers, and I had lost 3 of the four Strykers I had try to bring in to support.

Having recovered from taking the Airbase HQ, I consolidated the remains of 1st and 3rd platoons with 2nd platoon and move together to take the Special Forces HQ. Again, I rushed trying to clear the HQ and lost several men before retreating and just deciding to blow the SF HQ up. I walked away with a tactical victory but it was costly: 20 KIA, 36 wounded, 2 missing, and 6 Strykers lost. I punished the bad guys (126 KIA, 78 wounded, 1 missing and 26 vehicles lost) but my losses were too high.

A few other comments:

1/ The FIST doesn't get you much in the Berm scenario. The F/O is a better arty spotter. So, just keep it hidden and safe behind the Berm.

2/ I like using the MGS as an infantry support weapon but I have to be careful with them. Again, I used a tactic similar to Damian90s in Ash Shammas. You know that the armor is weak. So, you gotta keep them safe. I'll keep them pretty far back until I know what I'm facing. If the bad guys have AT-3s, then I'll move them up into relatively close range (Saggers aren't effective close). If they have RPGs or recoiless rifles, I'll keep them back. I've had them take out armor but generally, I use them to pound buildings and trenches. At Ash Shammas, I moved all three towards the control tower, outside of the fensce with an open view of the Special Forces HQ. Then, I used them with the Apaches to pound the Special Forces HQ when needed.

Bob

[Major SNAFU]

I

A few other comments:

1/ The FIST doesn't get you much in the Berm scenario. The F/O is a better arty spotter. So, just keep it hidden and safe behind the Berm.

Bob

I perhaps didn't explain myself well in my first post.

I did use the F/O later in the scenario, but I kept him in the FIST. Why? Because if you dismount the F/O it shows that he only communicates by voice. He has no radio. The they delays in calling in fire missions were much longer, as a result, than if I kept him is the FIST.

That was the only reason I kept the F/O in the FIST was to decrease the delay in relaying the arty fire missions.

The other C2 units took forever, but was pretty accurate.

I neve put troops into the barracks - there weren't many troops left to subdue when my Arty has worked the buildings over.

[Damian90]

I did manage to lose 1 M1. I watched the replay a bunch of times but all I saw was *boom*. I don't think it was a T-62. Maybe it was a well placed ATGM shot.

You made a basic mistake, tank was faced side armor to enemy, never do that. In first mission there are no T-62's (at least in versions up to 1.10) but T-54B's, still dangerous foe if their get a chance to hit side armor.

Also there are no ATGM's, probably an RPG hit in side hull armor, turret is better protected against these. But remember side armor on modern tanks is designed to well protect only against hits within safe manouver angles, this means 30-35 degrees from the hull or turret center line. Read thread about modern armors, there are many usefull informations.

In the end, I had 6 KIA and 11 wounded to 184 KIA, 90 wounded, 82 missing and 17 tanks lost.

17 MBT's lost?! I suppose that this is still a fault of the basic mistake, facing ther side armor towards enemy.

Remember, especially in MOUT, be carefull and slow. I allways play that way, slow, carefully with minimal losses possible. So in end I have some casualties in infantry, few lightly armored vehicles lost and no tank lost.

[Damian90]

One more thing, what I don't like in campaing after 1.10 patch is that there are no M1 tanks with TUSK. It would change many things, also I need to report, hopefully for future patch that one of TUSK parts, the M19 ARAT-1 ERA (Dynamic Protection) is based on Russiand 4S24 Dynamic Protection. These types of ERA are multilayer and are capabale to defeat even tandem warheads of RPG's and some ATGM's.

4S24 is capabale to protect against RPG-29 something as light protected as BMP-2 and BMP-3 still light enough to preserve swimming capabilities of these vehicles.

M19 ARAT-1 have the same or similiar internal design.

Proof:

M19 ARAT-1 Dynamic Protection/Explosive Reactive Armor, same ERA is placed on M2A2/A3 Bradley and it's derivatives like M7 BFIST.

4S24 is on the right mounted on BMP-3 (much more possible), on the left much smaller Kontakt-5 or Relikt side hull cassettes on BMPT. We can see similarities and we currently know that NII Stali that is main developer of ERA for Russian armed forces have strong cooperation with US.

And a video material:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9uaIlgXync&feature=player_embedded

Would be good if campaing have been updated and M19 ARAT-1 in game can have enhanced capabilities.

[Major SNAFU]

This is all great info and I appreciate all of the responses. But what I was also hoping for was some comments from the more experienced in CMSF, are some tips as to what I could improve to kep from getting surprised by the one hull-down tank, and some theories as to why this one tank just sat there for 35+ minutes of the battle not engaging a large number of my units who all had eyes-on the area. And why, when the tank finally did fire did only two of my 12+ units with eyes-on this area notice the tank?

There was at least a 15-20 minute period of time with at least 8 units all looking over the area (with cover arcs) where the tank was. And not so much as a "?" to pique my interest in the location.

[Damian90]

Ok in first mission that one tank that can't be spotted, You know his position, You have artillery fire, kill that mother****er by short but intense artillery fire with "armor" ammo option.

Same in other similiar situation, try to spot such tank with infantry (but hide them), use Javelin, artillery or direct air support to kill such tank. Don't risk your vehicles trying using them to disable it.

However I magnaged some times to kill that tank in first mission using M1128 or M1A1SA or Javelin.

[Lanzfeld]

Yeah SNAFU there is that one tank in the first mission (near the gate to the fortress) that is not visible until you are walking up on to it. It is hidden in a small depression of the earth. How to avoid this is to hunt your troops with covered arcs so when they do see it they will stop and go to ground. When you are using quick or fast over ground the tank will probably see your guys and fire. If you hunt then your guys are moving slower and they will see the beast before he sees them (maybe).

[Lt. Smash]

17 MBT's lost?! I suppose that this is still a fault of the basic mistake, facing ther side armor towards enemy.

Just to be clear, the 17 MBTs lost was on the Syrian side. I only have lost one tank and that was in the first scenario for the entire TF Thunder campaign.

With that said, I appreciate your comments and insite about side facing armor.

Bob

[Ribosom]

I perhaps didn't explain myself well in my first post.

I did use the F/O later in the scenario, but I kept him in the FIST. Why? Because if you dismount the F/O it shows that he only communicates by voice. He has no radio. The they delays in calling in fire missions were much longer, as a result, than if I kept him is the FIST.

Are you sure about this? I´m not home ATM to check but I think the american 2 man FO team always has one observer and one radio operator. IIRC units on the move might loose contact with their radio or that PDA thingy but regain it if they are stopped for some time. But I might be mistaken, haven´t played TF Thunder for quite some time.

[Ribosom]

I just tried it. Moved the FO out of the FIST onto the beam. They loose contact when moving away from the vehicle, but regain radio contact as soon as they come to a halt.

I am still on version 1.21 by the way.

[Blackladder]

I just tried it. Moved the FO out of the FIST onto the beam. They loose contact when moving away from the vehicle, but regain radio contact as soon as they come to a halt.

I believe that to be a normal behaviour: "radio contact" is a general term for the various equipment employed to communicate, and as such some of the radio are best used when immoble and properly set up.

Also 2 KIA and 5 WIA aren't bad.

The best tactic I've found when playing this scenario is to keep the defenders busy with artillery, take out all the tanks you can see with Javelins, and then move the entire force bar the FO to the leftmost trenches, clear them and have my force make its way to the base, all the while bombing it to keep the defenders suppressed: nowhere it says that the military base has to be captured intact, after all)

[Peregrine]

That tank is a sneaky ambush put in by the scenario designer.

In that situation the most effective way of killing it without taking casualties from that tank specifically is to be advancing with your infantry first.

When they eventually spot it the spotting sqd should go to ground. At that point sneak an AT team to that location and at the same time move the infantry sqd away. Then you need to be patient as the AT sqd will NOT immediately spot the tank but eventually they will and when they do they will take care of it.

But basically before this can happen you will need to have arty/area fired all the trenches etc so the Red infantry is already dead so your own infantry can move in relative safety.

[Erik Springelkamp]

When you occupy the closest corner tower of the complex, infantry with a Javelin can easily take out the tank from the upper floor.

You do have to hit first time though, otherwise the tank will shoot back :-)

[rune]

Would I do that? Imagine, being accused of having something evil in a scenario. The horror, the horror...

Rune

That tank is a sneaky ambush put in by the scenario designer.

In that situation the most effective way of killing it without taking casualties from that tank specifically is to be advancing with your infantry first.

When they eventually spot it the spotting sqd should go to ground. At that point sneak an AT team to that location and at the same time move the infantry sqd away. Then you need to be patient as the AT sqd will NOT immediately spot the tank but eventually they will and when they do they will take care of it.

But basically before this can happen you will need to have arty/area fired all the trenches etc so the Red infantry is already dead so your own infantry can move in relative safety.

[Peregrine]

Would I do that? Imagine, being accused of having something evil in a scenario. The horror, the horror...

Rune

Nothing compared to the horror of being a pixel infantry in one of my armies.

Why is our armour so far behind us they keep asking? Because unless you guys are really starting to bleed white I am not bringing those 60 tonne modern marvel kings of the battlefield anywhere near anything dangerous like a trench that I don't know for sure is emptied.

But you have already artied that trench twice? Then everything should be fine stop whinging and go.

[Hairy Pie]

Finished this mission for the first time last night on Elite. Can't remember all the stats, but I only lost one Striker to the counter attacking T-55's and the crew got out unhurt. Overall I suffered two wounded and no KIA's

The Syrian's surrendered before my infantry got anywhere near the fort, but I'd been pumelling the heck out of them for quite some time.

I then started the first Marines mission, as I'm playing one mission from each campaign before moving on.

I have to say that the standalone missions are exciting, but knowing that you have to preserve your forces for future battles realy ramps up the tension.

Brilliant stuff Battlefront!