phil stanbridge Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I've got all the TOW2 series including Kursk and have seen improvements every release. I am tempted to invest in Caen as well, as it is a theatre that really appeals to me. Unfortunately my heart is saying buy it but my head is saying wait - I've not been able to find out much about it either which doesn't bode well usually. How are the early adopters finding it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Yeh I'm interested too. In the screen shots I've seen there are none of those awful generic defensive works that our Xray eyes can see right into. Which will be a plus if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakaprutt Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Hi all, playing TOW for a long time (except Centauro), Caen is actually the most difficult campaign from the attacking point. it's far more harder to find the enemy and rushing is not the good way to have success, a lot of well hidden enemies (even tanks in building !!) ... you have to be more cautious, far more cautious due to the power of german units in defense as most of them are really really well hide. I really prefer Caen to Kursk despite the absence of a german campaign in Caen. real bocage maps would have make it even more Epic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 Sounds interesting then but no German campaign!! Well that's a bit of a low blow although I'm not really that surprised. The strengths in this game are definitely with the attacker. Seems strange not to include a German campaign however. There were some epic German counter attacks around Caen if I'm not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakaprutt Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 i'm not a fan of defensive campaign (Russian campaign in Kursk is a slaughter) but i would have really enjoyed to play Caen with german units, so many excellent fire positions with crossed fire that it wouldn't have been fair for Brits and Canadians i had to slow my time of play not to finish it too soon (micro management takes time), but damn i'm having fun !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcansell Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 The inability to play from the German side is a big disappointment - and odd if you consider that campaigns are provided for both sides in the original game. Hopefully it'll be added in a patch or mayber some individual battles provided. I actually prefer playing on the defensive (long standing habit dating from ASL in the mid '80s). Playing the Germans in a defensive / counter-attacking role is always fun for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquidcactus Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 only on first mission for caen (map is nice & big), still waiting to see some SS infantry.. ive only come arcoss SS tank crewmen soo far & well hidden 88's in hedgerows.. no German campaign is defenetley a tad emotional.. :*( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 The German Caen campaign is sorely missed here as well. The lack of (LOS-blocking) hedgerows and the abundance of trees on the Caen maps makes for very difficult battles; the only way to know the line of sight of your units is to go down to ground level with the camera. Which makes the battles an unnescessary micro-managing affair in my opinion. The new vehicles and units are excellent. If you don't mind the above mentionned micro-management I think you'll enjoy the campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcansell Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 The more that I think about the lack of a german campaign then the stranger it becomes - we all know that SS = $$ so a battle that features them but where you can't actually play them is a weird choice. There again you could say the same about the original game - it features a battle that took place just a few miles down the road from the more famous one that the SS fought (although you do get the 'toys' - Tigers/Panthers - to play with in that). From a sales perspective it's an odd decision. From my point of view, both of the operations featured in Caen offer big challenges for the defender (historically at least) and would be very interesting to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Even if SS=$$ it doesn't mean we would do that. I don't think you'll find a Russian game featuring SS campaign, missions or SS protagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Even if SS=$$ it doesn't mean we would do that. I don't think you'll find a Russian game featuring SS campaign, missions or SS protagonist. That's a very good point that Sneaksie raises. As much as we'd like to see a campaign based on the Waffen SS I guess we have to respect the harsh reality. Although we also need to remember this is 'just' a game as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter thomas Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 Is it just me, or does there seem to be no LOS operational in Caen - at least as far as trees go? This may be the case for all TOW games - I'm not sure. I've noticed it immediately in Caen, and it's made it not worth playing. Going down to vehicle level to check LOS is a waste of time because I can't see through tree foliage, but the enemy AI clearly can. My AI can too, if I direct it what to attack, but it won't attack targets behind trees of its own accord, even when those targets are pouring fire into it. It's easy to spot this from even the first battle. Just drive something into one of the fields, keeping behind trees. Go down and check LOS to the line of 88s that always seems to be deployed in the tree line just below Cheux. You won't be able to see them, but they'll pick you off no problem. This means you have to really micro manage movement in order to keep tanks behind ground obstructions. It's tedious, and very unrealistic. The AI should not be able to spot through multiple lines of trees at a mile distant. I'm playing on a 1920x1080 res. Also, does anyoneknow how to get anti-aliasing to work? If I set the card (a460GTX, 1GB) to override seems to be the only way, but then I get see-through trees in ther near distance (that is, the far landscape appears on top of the near landscape objects). Maybe that could solve the los issue..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMinistry Posted November 10, 2010 Share Posted November 10, 2010 The Close Combat series used to have Waffen SS units during German campaigns, if I remember correctly. The one that took place in Normandy/Utah Beach had the 17th SS Götz von Berlichingen Div. involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 ToW games have SS units as well, but not SS-specific scenarios or campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 peter thomas Looks like the whole situation of being fired upon by enemies you cannot see seems alien to you, however, it's quite normal in real life engagements and wargames. And since when movement behind cover became unrealistic? If enemy guns fire at your concealed units from several hundred meters away (there is no way you could fit a mile there) means that your units aren't concealed after all. There are gaps in tree line and it's difficult to 'drive into the fields', especially in an AFV several meters high, and stay concealed. On the other hand, these 88s and PaK 43s are smaller stationary targets concealed in bushes, no wonder your units couldn't see them. The fact that crews of moving vehicles could not use optical instruments normally also helped. The most way of overcoming these unfavourable odds is to advance using infantry as well having artillery ready. Even if infantry wouldn't spot these guns directly in time, you'll get 'hints' - gun symbols in brackets roughly showing their location. Order your artillery to fire at this area (you can also order your AFVs to fire there, but they'll need LOS) and your 88mm problems will be solved rather quickly. Anti-aliasing is not supported, that's why you get rendering issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Micro managing is part of the game and may take some getting used to, it certainly requires patience much like that which would be required in a real life combat situation I'd imagine. What you can do is immediately fire comes your way is to hit 'pause' and work out a response, expecting the AI to do it for you is not the way this game plays. And if you think that the enemy has an unfair advantage then get into the habit of saving the game regularly so you can go back to the last save and have another go. It sounds like there are no cut and paste generic defensive earthworks used in Caen, maybe a straight answer will come my way sometime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 I wouldn't call them generic, but they are there. However, many surprises await you - if you see earthworks, it doesn't necessary mean that they are occupied right now and if you don't see them doesn't mean there are no enemies there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted November 11, 2010 Author Share Posted November 11, 2010 You do need a lot of patience with any TOW title - and this is part of the problem for me. I'm as patient as a saint, and during the attacking battles it's not an issue because time isn't a problem - but during the defending games it's completely different. The AI will tend to charge it's victory locations, thus rendering your 'patient' defenses next to useless within no time at all. It's very hard to keep a check on things as the defender in most cases, which some would say is realistic I'm sure. The chaos of war and all that. But I disagree - it's one of the pitfalls of any type of game like this unfortunately. I'm still not completely sold however, and would like to know if there will be a forthcoming demo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcansell Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 The Close Combat series used to have Waffen SS units during German campaigns, if I remember correctly. The one that took place in Normandy/Utah Beach had the 17th SS Götz von Berlichingen Div. involved. Let's not get hung up on the SS, the actions of elements from 21st Panzer during the early stages of Operation Goodwood are well documented and would be fascinating to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 No demo is planned. I'm sure more users will post their opinions on Caen campaign soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakaprutt Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Reach fourth battle : Hill 112 (and i hate the map as i can't find a path to outflank till now), confirming that LOS makes it difficult for the attacker but still no real problem to deal with it, now having 4 excellent snipers that scout ahead the antitank abilities of german infantry and the quality of german tanks in defense (combine to the density of hedgerows) make this campaign a slow one for me, a shot could really come from nowhere and given the power of german PaK and Panzer, it's better not to let that shot be taken. now that i know better this brit units, i put churchills ahead with Achilles in cover while protecting my flanks with mixed sherman units. PS : Please let us play Caen as germans, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter thomas Posted November 11, 2010 Share Posted November 11, 2010 Sneaksie, I'm just curious - could you confirm for me that tree foliage (such as very definitely confounds a Mark 1 human eyeball such as mine) is not coded to impede LOS for the AI in this game? I mean, can you confirm that the AI can actually see through trees, even multiple lines of trees? Just so as I know what I have to deal with. Thanks, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominatus Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Does anyone know if anymore expansions are planned? I wish all the theater of war one stuff was ported over with a nice face lift, we would have literally every ww2 theater and time except for a few minor ones. I know Id pay for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Sneaksie, I'm just curious - could you confirm for me that tree foliage (such as very definitely confounds a Mark 1 human eyeball such as mine) is not coded to impede LOS for the AI in this game? I mean, can you confirm that the AI can actually see through trees, even multiple lines of trees? Just so as I know what I have to deal with. Thanks, Peter Tree foliage blocks LOS, but i'll explain how visibility raytracing is done. 1) First of all, a simplified tree model is used to calculate whether tree blocks a passing LOS ray or not, otherwise even a single tree would hamper performance significantly. So if a unit is covered just by 'edge' of a tree crown it may be considered clearly visible. 2) Tree crowns are lifted above the ground, obviously, so they won't cover a unit right next to it and tree trunks can hardly cover anything. On the other hand, bushes are much more useful for hiding infantrymen or guns, but you'll hardly conceal a several meters high tank behinf them. So if we analyse a simplified case of two hostile units on a leveled terrain, trees (unless there are really many of them between the units) wont block LOS between them at all. All whould change if the ground is uneven - one unit would be lifted and a crown of a single tree could conceal it completely from the view of that enemy unit. Visibility system takes many other factors into account. For example, angle size of target is calculated and compared to angle values a human eye can theoretically see, moving units are much more visible (while their vision is impaired). In addition, each AFV crewman uses authentic view angles and optical sights (if any) with different capabilities (for example, a tank driver will look forward most of the time, but will look to the side using that view slit as well from time to time, main gun operator usually has an extremely narrow FOV, but he would see almost anything not blocked inside it and so on). A tank with only driver left alive would be a terrible recon unit, obviously, and even a fully crewed one on the move would be worse than an infantryman (no optical sights benefits). However, a gunner and commander in a stationary tank (most models) are able to detect enemies far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneaksie Posted November 12, 2010 Share Posted November 12, 2010 Does anyone know if anymore expansions are planned? I wish all the theater of war one stuff was ported over with a nice face lift, we would have literally every ww2 theater and time except for a few minor ones. I know Id pay for them. Currently no such compilation is planned, i doubt that many people would be eager to buy already exisiting content again:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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