Syrian defense camping, is it interesting, or not?

[Alex]

Syrian defense campaign, is it interesting, or not?

Many times ago CMSF is come, and too much scenarios and campaigns was made by different fans of this great game by this time, but has I can see absolutely most of them it's Blue-VS-Red-AL(or H2H), or Red-VS-Red scenarios, and campaign’s also looks same. I don't know anyone Red-VS-Blue camping or clear Red-VS-Blue scenario. Interesting why, because no one interest this, or no one don't want do so big deal for Arabians, when he can do a Blue-VS-Red?

I think Red-VS-Blue battle it's not only ideology, it's in first absolutely another tactics type, because "clear" Syrian-VS-Blue battle it's absolutely Blue firepower superior against Red, no frontal chance for Red, only maneuver and ambushing, who do something like it in Blue-VS-Red battles - no one I think, because it's no needed.

And so, did anybody interesting Red-VS-Blue camping, or not?

I ask this question because I thinking to do it, and I'm interested that people think.

And so, did we need Red-VS-Blue camping, or not?

I ask this question because I thinking to do it, and I'm interested that people think.

[MeatEtr]

I posted about this not long ago: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=90860

I get the impression part of the reason a red vs blue(AI) campaign is ignored is due to the assumption that red has to defend all the time. Since we all know the AI attacking a human is well, usually laughable. Which leads to the human being the attacker the more popular way to play. So I would love to see, and I think others would too, an attacking/aggressive red vs blue(AI) campaign. Simulating moments of insurgent or Syrian counterattacks after big blues initial push.

Besides, as of now, there is no red vs blue(AI) campaigns. That alone would draw attention to it.

[souldierz]

I would like to see a Red vs Blue campaign.Doesn't always have to be Red defending an area while blue attacks.There's multiple ways to make a Red vs Blue mission.I'm not familiar with the editor and spent most of my time on the game playing it, but there some scenarios I think could be done and would find enjoyable.

One for example is being red,and fighting the blue force through a town(or whatever terrain), as the blue force AI plan calls for the blue to withdraw and pull back 1 or 2 km, to a base outside of town,instead of pushing forward after the enemy or staying and defending an area.The red forces fight and pursue them out of town, but can't pursue them to aggressively or they could get cut down,or the player can even try to find a way to try and cut off the blue forces from pulling out, but yet either way, must remain on the Blue force heals as blue pulls back.

Another could be Red forces attacking a base, or embassy,or hotel, or even an outpost that is isolated,as well as a bogged down convoy.

In some of these missions(also insurgent scenarios) the Red force shouldn't have to completely wipe out the blue force, but should try to get himself pts for certain things like, a destroyed tank or truck or whatever vehicle,along with gaining certain amounts of points for casualties inflicted,or getting to a certain position.Even if the time runs out in some cases, and the gun battle doesn't resolve, it could simulate the Red forces melting away after receiving a withdraw order over the radio,and hopefully the player got his pts necessary to win, by destroying certain things or setting foot on certain land.

A Red counter attack scenario would be a good one also.Defend an area from a small Blue attack,and then after, counter attack, and try to fight to get pts required and simulate pushing the Blue forces back.

If the Exit Zones features were in CMSF, i think it could give many more options to make a realistic battle of today's world with red(and blue of coarse).

The Blue side doesn't have to win every war in this game.A hypothetical Red campaign on Blue forces in the Middle East,where the Red side comes out victorious and drives the Blue forces back,i think would be fun to try and play.It would be a challenge all around for players and designers,but I would like to see a Red Campaign very much.Syrian Airborne and T-90 tanks could give the Blue forces a good blow and would be great to attack with.

It would also be interesting to see how the Campaign story is, and how peoples imagination can play with it.Maybe in this Campaign, a Blue task force was hammered hard and then had to be dismantled and rebuilt and renamed,and you were the commander that crippled it.

PS-As a player of this game there's two kinds of scenarios I would personally like to see and have a craving for.One being a big Coalition force fighting a lot of Uncons, the other being a big conventional battle as the Red forces against combined Blue forces(Marines,Brits,Army) in a meeting Engagement.

[Alex]

2 MeatEtr

AI can attacking good, but need more attention and test to do it plans good. And when we talking about Blue forces, they firepower superior forgive them some mistakes. I say so because I already tray to do some scenarios where BLUE (AL) attack red (human), and it's looks not so bad.

[Paper Tiger]

One important thing to bear in mind before setting off to design a campaign: Will YOU enjoy playing it? I think you'll find a Red vs BLUE AI campaign will be a minority interest thing and so it would only be worth doing if you yourself would play it to your heart's content. That's MY motivation. I design something that I want to play and then share it with the community. I suspect tat the majority of campaign designers are similarly motivated. They design stuff that THEY enjoy playing and share it. So if you like playing Red v Blue AI, off you go and who cares about what the rest of us think.

If you are doing it to make members of the community happy then make a BLUE vs Red campaign. We've ALL played at least one of those at one time or another but very few have played Red v Red and nobody a Red v Blue campaign.

[Alex]

I'm russian, and like to play RED forces because they have soviet/russian stuff, and play against blue forces it's interest for me, and I don't have some prejudices to play red-VS-blue.

But I asking interesting it for western people or not?

[Alan8325]

I would love to see a Red vs. Blue campaign and play as Red. I would personally recommend including both offensive and defensive scenarios, possibly in equal proportion to keep things varied and interesting. Mostly defensive scenarios would probably get kinda boring in my opinion. Acceptable casualty levels should probably be significantly higher for friendly (Red) forces as well.

It could go something like this.

Mission:

1.) Red regular armor (defender) vs. Blue armor (attacker)

2.) Red regulars/spec forces/uncon (defender) vs. Blue heavy infantry (attacker) in urban terrain

3.) Red recon vs. Blue recon (meeting engagement)

4.) Red medium/heavy infantry (attacker) vs. Blue infantry/armor (defender) in dense vegetation or hilly terrain

5.) Red mixed forces (defender) vs. Blue mixed forces (attacker) in a massive offensive. (Blue almost always achieves terrain objectives but Red can "win" by inflicting casualties)

6.) Red Uncon/spec forces counterattack (attacker) vs. Blue mixed forces (defender) in urban terrain

7 and up) Various Uncon offensives/defensives and Republican Guard operations

And don't be afraid to scale the quantities of units available to make it fun. Maybe the Blue politicians decided not to send many forces to Syria in your particular story.

[Eagle2]

One being a big Coalition force fighting a lot of Uncons

I beleive there is a mission like that in the repository under Marine missions. I'd send a link but the server is still down :mad:

[Alex]

Ok guys, I think it's time to warm this conversation.

I with my comrade Alek do a Red defensive campaign. It will be include a 17 missions, we already did 7n missions. Our idea:

Syrian 58 Arm BDE fighting against mixed British-American forces. In our campaign will no Republican Guard, no BMP-3, or T-72Turms and T-90. Only a bad Syrian forces this T-55 and reserve infantry (usually). It will be a very difficult campaign, for good players, no tank rush like in blue campaigns. Has I sad we already did 7n missions and they looks good.

[Chainsaw]

This sounds promising. Although I rarely play red side I will surely play a red campaign!

[Alex]

1st mission map

3d mission map

5th mission map

[Alek]

About Red Campaign

Red player have no one BMP-3, T-90, T-72M1V Tums-T and other «super-weapons».

A some RPG-29, a few AT-14 for special forces, and - almost always the standard for Syrian Army и non-combatant forces (a few level skill increased in most late missions).

The big note: the blue campaign becomes around of battalion size of force. There are no chances that the Syrian force will have small losses for transition in other battle. Therefore – the size of Syria campaign – different parts from the brigade size forces and is not enough CORE units. On duration of fight – the Syrian party will increase a few skill, to do reorganization (begun forces less, are added other forces for other techniques – it will be a variety and interest).

Also –now 7 mission basically ready ? total number of missions – approximately 17-18.

Campaign action on a card:

Иbegins approximately 15км Seat Al-Qariatayn town , at a crossroads of Road #7 and roads Homs (Hims)-At-Tanf.

Enemy - a great group moves on Homs and at crossroads area British forces forwarding flanking strikes the southwest lengthways of Road #7 on Al-Qariatayn and further on Dumeira.

Our Syrian forces - Battle Group of 58th Armor BDE of 7th mechanized division defended in a battle order front at West and has got outflanking.

The place and action time occurs already after the war beginning, when it became clear that enemy power and the air superiority will not allow to operate mechanized forces in a former, classical order as the Soviet advisers learnt the Syrian generals. Air strikes and disorganization of control system do not promote struggle in large connections.

Leaning against a wide network of militia, infantry and groups of insurgents (because of which war has begun) a brigade has made decision to pass to tactics of limit and restraint at enemy. Combining flexible defense in strong points, small maneuvers by wide front, active actions guerrilla and special forces in backside of enemy. The weakest soldiers are released from lines, supplied by a communication (radio and phone) and go of spies role. Special Forces, possessing some operational experience in Lebanon intensively conduct preparation of reservists and a militia, non-combatant to guerrilla tactics.Of course, the special Forces are defense basis in night conditions.

Syrian Forces pool (begin):

58 Armored BDE:

Three armored Btns (581th, 582nd, 583rd)– T-55MV and T-55 (1974) Main Battl Tanks –Green Level (rare Regular or Conscript)

581th MechBtn (BMP-1 4C, AT-4C Spigot)

Some smaller troops – AT Company (BRDM-2 AT-5 and foot AT-4C), Recon Company (BRDM-2) and other.

Also have Howitzers D-30 и MLRS GRAD form 7th Arty Rgt, but succession of events and air conditions does not assume that they can render the strong support.

11th Special Forces Rgt (crack-veteran level)

Also in vicinities is available: parties of 31th Reserv Inf BDE (Four Inf Btn, one mixed MechBtn –T-72 Early and BTR-60PB) and a few Militia troops. Fire support -82-mm mortars. Main AT weapon – AT-3B Sagger and SPG-9 Recoilless Gun.

Insurgents are presented by groups of combatants and fighter- terrorists (different skill) and will help usually in towns and outskirts.

It seems that all world falls and the lovely Syria perishes becoming a victim political gamers and dirty intrigues, but soldiers of 7th mechanized division, 11 SF regiment, reserve infantry and devoted sons of Syria in guerrilla groups should fulfils the duty on peoples protection!

The player holds each scenario of slightly low infantry, weak AT-3 (is more rare At-4, it is very rare AT-14), and has some old tanks (sometimes has no anything, seldom has much) seldom has special forces, insurgents have weak experience, seldom good. Fire support – is not enough 120-mm, it is not enough 82-mm, is rare GRAD or D-30, constantly support arrives as a reinforcement already after the fight beginning. The blue party almost always is equality or advantage in the field of fight.

The player will play inconveniently:

Inconvenient defensive positions (turned into other side then enemy attack , which does not represent in the operating plan a copy to the Syrian staff)

Unnecessary and weak forces in action (as does not suffice on all necessary Т-72 Turms or AT-14 Cornet, but available there is weak reserve infantry, HMGs DShK and old tanks)

Late and arriving reserves not where it is convenient ( control system of Syrians and so not clearness, glitches after aviation indirections and radio-electronic suppression)

[bardosy]

Alek, very funny when you used cyrill characters in an English text!

[Alek]

Im embarrassed

But on my systems encoding - impossible to distinguish externally cyrill or non-cyrill characters.

If something is unclear - I'll try to correct and explain again

[souldierz]

I like the story and the maps presented, looking very nice and it has got me interested.

Seems like this is going to be a big campaign.I'm looking forward to playing it and to see how the story line plays out, should be good fun:)

[MikeyD]

CM Afghanistan is somewhere on the horizon if you really really crave Red campaign play. Most (though unfortunately not all) CMSF standalone scenarios are playable either side. So Red side hasn't been entirely ignored. Doing a campaign story told from the Syrian side sounds like its long overdue. The combination of fresh perspective and real-world locations sounds exciting!

[MeatEtr]

Great, this looks promising, looking forward to playing it.

[RadioactiveMan]

I have a half-finished Red vs Blue campaign lurking in the depths of my hard drive... it gets tinkered with from time to time. While I agree that most people like Blue vs Red, I enjoyed Paper Tiger's (and others) Red vs Red.

What is most interesting for me in Shock Force is small unit actions- even though the game engine has a little trouble with up close engagements. So when I went to design a Red vs Blue campaign, I went forward with smallish engagements in mind. A major problem with a Red vs Blue campaign of this sort quickly became apparent however- Red infantry is fragile! Particularly on the attack Its hard to keep a Red infantry core force intact. Something like Field Marshall Blucher's (I think they were his, anyway?) excellent single platoon campaigns are not feasible from a Red perspective.

I came up with a bit of a workaround that (I think) makes for an interesting storyline with neat objectives. My campaign storyline goes something like this: American Army forces roll through your part of Syria and smash everything on their way inland. You are in command of a Special Forces company that was out in the field on training exercises when the invasion began. Because you were mobile, and not where US intel expected, you avoided the initial onslaught. I chose Special Forces for your core group because you get a bit better equipment, some interesting support squads (RPGs and snipers), they have relatively good command and communications, and because the infantry squads are splittable, something which almost all Syrians lack!

The campaign structure is for your Special Forces company to operate behind enemy lines causing a ruckus where ever possible. The first scenario sees your company assaulting a lightly defended US checkpoint. To point out how fragile Syrian infantry is- the US force I built into this scenario is only an infantry platoon plus a pair of humvees, but if you mismanage your attack its quite easy to get 50% casualties right off the bat!

The first scenario also introduces you to your major nemesis- a US Army Cavalry group is in the area to act as a rapid reaction force to counter efforts such as yours. This group includes a platoon of Bradleys plus support elements. Throughout the campaign, this unit, which is a core unit for the US side, will arrive partway through each mission and attack you, often from behind. This puts you in situations where you have to either rush through and accomplish your objective, or setup a blocking force/rearguard. Because this unit is a Core element, its possible to blunt or neutralize it- which makes subsequent missions easier.

As the campaign progresses you gain other assets- rescue a militia leader and get Un-con supporters, raid an ammo dump full of captured Syrian weaponry to gain MGs and RPGs, and assault a prison to rescue fellow Syrian regulars. Each of these missions enables further Core forces to support your efforts. Interspersed with these missions are Convoy attacks, town invasions, escape and evasion, etc etc.

Or this was the theory, anyway. In practice it was really difficult to gauge how large a core force to give to the Red player. Too many and the campaign became too easy, too few and a early bad mission could make the campaign unplayable. I envisioned a campaign where your initial Special Forces company gets whittled down to only a few veteran survivors who are supported by rag tag assets from many different units. The end campaign would have your mixed force destroy the US Cavalry group, and force the US side to commit a large number of troops to secure the rear area you have made so dangerous. The last scenario would be some kind of battle of the Alamo against a combined arms US assault- maybe inside a built up urban area?

Anyway, its on the shelf somewhere, maybe one day? Grad school and other games have short circuited this campaign, for the time being

[Alek]

CM Afghanistan is somewhere on the horizon if you really really crave Red campaign play. Most (though unfortunately not all) CMSF standalone scenarios are playable either side. So Red side hasn't been entirely ignored. Doing a campaign story told from the Syrian side sounds like its long overdue. The combination of fresh perspective and real-world locations sounds exciting!

There are two problems - why are not present Red against Blue

1. In our country (Belarus, Russia) localisation

was only 1 path for SMSF standard (1-03 )

There is no patch for SMSF: Marines

We used the old version of game

was difference from that played all versions...

Especially balance....

Not all have the international electronic card for buying the Internet

2. The most important reason

AI does not take Javelin !!!

They and remain in spool of Bradley or Strycker

Without Javelin blue has problems even against old Т-55 MBT

Problem Javelin (there can be who that know as it to do?) for AI is unique important reason - why British (12th Mechanized BDE for example ) is the enemy in our compaign: because IBCT (Airbone or recon BfSB) and British Forces have Javelin groups.

....

So when I went to design a Red vs Blue campaign, I went forward with smallish engagements in mind. A major problem with a Red vs Blue campaign of this sort quickly became apparent however- Red infantry is fragile! Particularly on the attack Its hard to keep a Red infantry core force intact. ....

So? everyboby whant tanks

We have practically refused from a CORE unit

Each fight - have big losses - the blue side is strong enemy, it is impossible to do beatings without losses

In a real life - each troop can be filled up by the recruit pool or two weak troops connect in one after fight

In an SMSF it is impossible to do that

[Alex]

New screens from defence campaign:

6 map

[Alex]

Ok, we are decided to show the 1st mission of our campaign, like a DEMO. It ready at 100%, and had briefing and all other. This mission is very hard to play, and I advise play in WEGO. Read briefing attentively, because fighting against Blue forces is very hard.

This scenario has been tested and it hard, but it can be win.

So here it is: http://ifolder.ru/17099021 ("Check on the roads")

We hope you'll enjoy it, and we waiting you impressions.

[Alex]

I forgot, play RED-VS-Blue (only) ;-)

[Alex]

So no one did't try it et?

[Sandokan]

Er, could you give some intruction about how to download it?

I can't read russian at all and I'm not sure where to click. :confused:

Thanks in advance.

[Alex]

Ooops! Sorry, my mistake, here a link on normal (on English) file repository:

DEMO - 1st mission from Syrian defense campaign:

http://depositfiles.com/files/9emu2aoa7