What's with all the trenches?

[Deputy]

I thought the major part of the battle of Kursk was fought on relatively flat or slightly rolling terrain. I mean this was mainly a tank battle, not a WW1 trench warfare battle. Most of the videos and pictures I've seen have been of open terrain nowhere near any towns and with very little cover and concealment.

[alan123]

The Russians dug really good defensive positions in the months leading up to Kursk and this is mirrored in the game.

Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for Kursk, there there is a great little summary.

Alan

[Deputy]

The Russians dug really good defensive positions in the months leading up to Kursk and this is mirrored in the game.

Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for Kursk, there there is a great little summary.

Alan

Those pics are from Wikipedia. Doesn't look like trench warfare to me.

[rune]

instead of wikipedia, try something more on the battle:

The Russian preparations

Thanks to their "Lucy" spy network, which operated high ranking sources in Germany via Switzerland, the Russians didn't just expect the German attack, they knew all about it. They received the full details of the German plan, and the Russian military intelligence was able to verify most details in the front to ensure that the information was real, not disinformation.

The Russians prepared eight defense lines one behind the other, and also positioned their entire strategic mobile reserve East of the Kursk salient, in case the Germans will penetrate thru all these defense lines, which indeed happened. The Russian plan was simple. First, they will let the Germans attack as planned right into their series of very dense defense lines, and after the German armor will be crushed there, the Russian army will start its strategic attack North and South of the Kursk salient and push the Germans West along a wide part of the front.

Or from onwar:

Soviet defensive preparations in the Kursk salient were unprecedented in scale. In addition to having a numerical superiority in all weapons categories and manpower available for their defensive battle, the Red Army laid over 400,000 mines and produced about 5,000 kilometers of trenches in the salient. Soviet defensive positions were up to 175 kilometers in depth.

The German command was well aware of the awe inspiring Soviet defenses in the Kursk salient. Nonetheless, the northern attack was ordered to begin at 0330 as scheduled. Soviet spoiling fire began at 0220 and this was indicative of how the battle would play out. Everywhere, German forces encountered stiff resistance as they advanced. Nowhere did they achieve a breakthrough into the Soviet rear. On July 13th, after nine days of intensive fighting with inconclusive results, Hitler called off the attack. The Allied landings in Sicily on July 10th and the lack of a breakthrough both played a role in that decision. Soviet forces were already counterattacking on a broad front and made substantial territorial gains in the following months.

I also highly recommend the excellent Glantz book on the battle of Kursk. it has an excellent oob but a few minor msitakes in the book itself. Hope this helps!

Rune

[DeutschRitter]

The Russians dug really good defensive positions in the months leading up to Kursk and this is mirrored in the game.

Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for Kursk, there there is a great little summary.

Alan

In my opinion it is a big "problem" of all TOW games. In every of them the most missions have the same "attack or defense trenches" missions. They all lack of variety. But its TOW! You get attuned to it!

[Narses]

300,000 civilians labored for months (April thru June) fortifying this area with over 4,200 kilometers of trenches and 500 kilometers of antitank ditches. There were 9 defensive lines (see Glantz pg 66).

Tanks were often dug in.

503,663 anti-tank mines were laid and 439,348 anti-personnel mines.

The Sovets had a total of 76 inf divisions involved ! The Gernans 28 Inf Div.

The trench lines were not linear but snaked around and doubled up to other lines especially on the salient's shoulders where the attack was expected and did come. When you broke through one you might have a kilometer or two open or even 3 - 5 kilometers between major defensive lines so tanks could maneuver around in that space but then there would be another line

On 4 May a meeting was held in Munich between Hitler, the General Staff and all the Kursk army and above commanders. During this conference 9th Army's Model showed recently taken aerial photos of the attack sectors showing a huge defensive preparation in depth and strength and said he believed an attack had no real prospects of success and that surprise was totally gone ( Zetterling, Kursk, pg 10). Guderian & Speer agreed while von Manstein said he felt an attack in April would have been a success but that there was not a good chance now. von

Kluge (Army Grp Center) and Zeitzler (CofS OKH) remained in favor. The meeting ended without a decision and Hitler even said, "When I think of attacking in the East this year my stomach turns over." Guderian replied, "Then why attack."

[molotov_billy]

Those pics are from Wikipedia. Doesn't look like trench warfare to me.

Troll? Read the text next to the Nazi propaganda photos. The vast majority of the "battle" was a slugfest through nearly 300 kilometers of fortified belts.

[Deputy]

Troll? Read the text next to the Nazi propaganda photos. The vast majority of the "battle" was a slugfest through nearly 300 kilometers of fortified belts.

Troll my butt. The pics don't show ANY trenches. As to the sim, if every attack in the campaign (which is unplayable because of the slideshow bug) is one trench after another, then the whole sim is pretty much an exercise in futility. I mean is it even possible to WIN a campaign as the German? If not, then why bother even playing it?

[molotov_billy]

Troll my butt. The pics don't show ANY trenches. As to the sim, if every attack in the campaign (which is unplayable because of the slideshow bug) is one trench after another, then the whole sim is pretty much an exercise in futility. I mean is it even possible to WIN a campaign as the German? If not, then why bother even playing it?

akl;sdfj;alkdsfusx

[rune]

Will try one last time.

Look here, particuarly note the amount of trenches per km of front.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pX1AAvE64poC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=kursk+trenchline&source=bl&ots=egbVRS4xKj&sig=t6tmBmY-M-sRYXUE-8_foG6EMDE&hl=en&ei=dcOjS5qNBI-6NtvypboI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Note: per km of front

24 rifle trenches

16 at rifle trenches

9 mg trenches

8.7 artillery trenches

2.8 communications trenches

This was per 1 KM of front.

Rune

[phil stanbridge]

hehe. Deputy, if you think logically about the situation, I doubt a cameraman would have had much time to pose a shot of the trenches, considering the struggle was taking place. If I recall there were hundreds of thousands of infantry in the fight, but Kursk, (as you correctly point out) is known for the epic tank battles. That could also explain why there are zillions of pics of tanks and very few of the infantry battles. The infantry man's lot wasn't particularly exciting. It was all about tank warfare.

[Deputy]

I think you are exctly right Phil. And I apologize for sounding like an a-hole

Anyway, I am having a BLAST playing Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin.

[phil stanbridge]

I think you are exctly right Phil. And I apologize for sounding like an a-hole

Anyway, I am having a BLAST playing Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin.

Glad to hear it. CMBB and CMAK are fantastic games. You wait until Normandy!

[Deputy]

Glad to hear it. CMBB and CMAK are fantastic games. You wait until Normandy!

Yep...I got ALL the CM games now! Each one is a winner.

[Narses]

I agree both CMBB and AK are great games and easily played and new missions generated. I still play them and there are several good mods out.

In case "Phil" isn't aware there is a Normandy game available also, it was the first in that series of CM. Unfortunately it does not have some of the small tweaks added to CMBB & AK. Btw, CMAK is very nice as it permits you to go from Africa to Sicily and Italy.