Some thoughts after several hours of play

[Makris1821]

I've played the game for quite a few hours now, and enjoying it, but I thought I'd put a few quick thoughts down about what I think could be improved.

1. Victory conditions. I think even the 80% of population threshold for victory is too high. The AI is never going to come back from being 4-1 down. The game is really over when the AI is 3:2 (or even less) down IMHO, which is a 60% threshold. Perhaps even 50% is even reasonable for situations when there are multiple opponents. It is that tedious end game mopping up that all 4X games suffer from than needs to be minimised, and this seems like an easy way to do it.

2. Trade. I see from recent posts per turn trades are not possible with the market, but for long periods of my most recent game I was short on food and had to go to the market every turn to buy it. It was tedious.

3. Upgrades. This can become a clickfest at certain times. For instance, upgrades seem to cancel sentry orders, and after a while I just gave up setting sentry orders as I had 50 or more infantry on garrison duty and they got upgraded 5 or 6 times. Similarly going to forty or more cities and putting in an automated factory and a nuclear power plants once you research them is a chore. Could they not be treated as upgrades somehow (to the factory, for instance) so that one click upgrades them all like units?

4. Politics. I don't know if this is WAD, but the AI does not seem to be working in its own best interests.

There was one situation where I'd reduced a player to three cities on Sicily, and they had plenty of units there. I could have destroyed them, as I had about 40 cities at the time and nukes, but I had bigger fish to fry and decided to make peace. I asked for reparations of various kinds and the deal meter stayed at -100. I eventually asked for just $1 and got the same response. I tried this over several turns. They were totally destroyed and hanging on for life, and I was offering them survival but they refused. Seems wrong to me, and in general the AI seemed closed to genuine opportunities, not just the "let's be friends until I'm ready to kill you" kind.

So I like the game, and particularly Brit's active support, so after he has finished bolting the fenders on the car, I look forward to seeing how this game matures, but I think I'll put it aside for a while until then.

[Innocence]

upgrades seem to cancel sentry orders

+1 for this one - don't let upgrades cancel sentry.

[Brit]

1. Victory conditions. I think even the 80% of population threshold for victory is too high. The AI is never going to come back from being 4-1 down. The game is really over when the AI is 3:2 (or even less) down IMHO, which is a 60% threshold. Perhaps even 50% is even reasonable for situations when there are multiple opponents. It is that tedious end game mopping up that all 4X games suffer from than needs to be minimised, and this seems like an easy way to do it.

(nod) That shouldn't be too hard to do.

2. Trade. I see from recent posts per turn trades are not possible with the market, but for long periods of my most recent game I was short on food and had to go to the market every turn to buy it. It was tedious.

Originally, I didn't want per-turn open-market trade. There was a bug in the earlier version that allowed this type of trade, but handled it incorrectly. I can add the per-turn back into the game, and add it to the interface so people can cancel or adjust it. Maybe an occasional reminder so that people don't forget they have an ongoing trade going on. (Otherwise, they might suddenly realize, 100 turns into the game, that their per-turn open-market trade from Turn 10 is still happening even though they don't need it anymore.)

3. Upgrades. This can become a clickfest at certain times. For instance, upgrades seem to cancel sentry orders, and after a while I just gave up setting sentry orders as I had 50 or more infantry on garrison duty and they got upgraded 5 or 6 times. Similarly going to forty or more cities and putting in an automated factory and a nuclear power plants once you research them is a chore. Could they not be treated as upgrades somehow (to the factory, for instance) so that one click upgrades them all like units?

I forgot about that. I'll get that fix in the next update.

4. Politics. I don't know if this is WAD, but the AI does not seem to be working in its own best interests.

There was one situation where I'd reduced a player to three cities on Sicily, and they had plenty of units there. I could have destroyed them, as I had about 40 cities at the time and nukes, but I had bigger fish to fry and decided to make peace. I asked for reparations of various kinds and the deal meter stayed at -100. I eventually asked for just $1 and got the same response. I tried this over several turns. They were totally destroyed and hanging on for life, and I was offering them survival but they refused. Seems wrong to me, and in general the AI seemed closed to genuine opportunities, not just the "let's be friends until I'm ready to kill you" kind.

I'll take a look at it.

[Emmeth]

I played for several hours too and I concur on everything, IMO also the battles involving let's say more than half a dozen platforms are impossible to understand apart looking at the report at the end. I suggest to speed them down a bit or try to find a solution to let the player understand what's going on, otherwise it is closer to the tangle you can see on comic stripes.

[Dr Matt Lamb]

Whilst this is primarily a war game the diplomatic model is very important in fighting global wars. I thought that Advanced Tactics was really good at recreating tactical and even strategic battles but what it lacked was a decent diplomacy mode against the AI. I think that Steel Empires has a potentially excellent diplomacy model but one which simply isnt used by the AI. Potentially the model could allow you to recreate the Treaty of Versailles, lend lease, wars by client states and effectively creating puppet states but at the moment the AI doesnt engage with you at all (or indeed with other AI players).

For example, if I have an enemy country on the ropes the AI should act like a rational nation. If it is a choice between destruction and national survival a nation would make peace at almost any price- look at Germany in 1918. So using the diplomacy model in SE you could push Germany back, capture most of its cities and then offer peace (perhaps you are worried, as the Allies were in 1918, at creating a power vacuum in central Europe which other nations such as Russia might exploit and want to keep Germany as a bastion against Communism or whatever). You could offer Germany peace (or even an alliance) and perhaps return the German cities you have taken in exchange for money each term (like reparations). A rational nation would jump at the chance. Of course, that nation might later break the agreement (as Germany effectively did) but that would harm its 'reputation'. Coming back to my earlier post- all nations should have a reputation which effects how other players (including the AI) act towards it- attacking others or breaking treaties makes your repuation go down. Trading peacefully and helping allies and the sheer passage of time (1945 is a long time ago and Germany is a peaceful democratic nation) makes reputation go up.

The AIs stance never seems to change either- I can give units, money, cities and so on and the AI stance remains at neutral- 50. You should be able to charm another nation until they want to sign an agreement with you. There was a much underrated RTS game called Arsenal: Extended Power which was a kind of real time SE and that had factions and AI personalities (as well as trading and research) that you could randomise and different factions would be more friendly towards you than others. The AI certainly needs to be more interesting in its diplomatic actions.

I have signed a trade agreement with the Americans in my latest game selling them oil every turn- however, I dont seem to be getting the money and it is difficult to see how I can tell whether I am. Furthermore, I tried to break the agreement by using the appropriate button but it didnt work. The AI also seems rather slugging- everyone ganged up on the French (as they do) and crushed them but since then the AI has done nout so I have just declared war on the Chinese to make things interesting. Also just had a cruiser get stuck in land and I had to disband it- I am running the latest version.

Good game though- really enjoying it!

[Hawk]

...I suggest to speed them down a bit or try to find a solution to let the player understand what's going on, otherwise it is closer to the tangle you can see on comic stripes.

Have you tried slowing the turn replay down to 1/3 speed, or are you referring to something else?

[Emmeth]

Nope, thanks for the hint, I'll give it a try.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

A couple of things regarding resource trades:

You can really sell the AI down the river if he has a shortage of something-he'll be so desperate for any scraps of same that you send him that you can thoroughly loot his technology. It also appears that the AI doesn't use the open market (nor inter-nation trade), as it will have like 1,000 oil while its armies and people are starving.

Is it possible to make the market dynamic, as in prices fluctuate depending on what is being traded? Supply and demand and all that...

[Clarke]

Regarding the percentage of population victory condition. I like the 80% setting, but find I am never sure where I'm at as far as achieving victory. Is it possible to have a running tally kept as part of the interface? Something displayed above the game map or accessible with a hot key to tell the player what percentage of the population he controls?