new to CMSF - two questions

[Javolenus]

Hi There,

I'm new to CMSF - been playing for a week or so. It's great - really impressed and hooked. I got two basic questions:

1. Is there a specific doctrine on deploying infantry? If you keep them mounted in vehicles and those vehicles get destroyed, then you lose manpower. If you dismount the infantry they usually get slotted in half a second. I realise that different scenarios call for different approaches, but was just wondering what the 'correct' military doctrine on this is?

2. Having bought the game and worked through the training scenario, I began playing with British Forces. I set the level to 'Veteran' and played the first two Brit scenarios. I scored major victories in each, with 2 KIA in the first scenario and 23 KIA plus 6 vehicles destroyed in the second scenario. As a newcomer - both to this specific game and to tactical games in general, I just wondered if this was a good performance or nothing special? I mean, do the missions get harder? I thought I'd try a modded scenario and installed Birdstrike's Paradise Road. This seemed quite a bit harder than the first two default scenarios mentioned above (couldn't finish Paradise Road because of technical troubles - probably need to update my graphics drivers). And so I just wanted to ask: is it better to play modded scenarios for a more challenging game? Or should I play through the whole Brit campaign first, in order to learn the ropes? Would welcome some feedback on this.

Finally, just a big thank you to the modders - I started installing various game-enhancing mods and they really make a difference.

[hcrof]

Hi there!

1. Infantry doctrine usually involves dismounting the infantry out of small arms/RPG range and advancing them forwards making maximum use of cover as well as good suppressive fires from the carriers. If you are new to modern warfare remember that ranges are very long. An RPG can hit your carriers at 300m out and western infantry should be pretty good at dropping targets at that range too. To stop your infantry being cut down suppresion is key. Fire at anywhere even suspected of containing the enemy to stop them from shooting back.

More information can be found in the Strategy and Tactics forum. Try my community strategy guide thread and then move on to the sticky threads for some more advanced stuff.

2. It looks like you did well in the first mission but I would try the second one again. You can't afford to sustain those losses! 5-10 KIA and 1-2 vehicles lost would be acceptable I think. Check out this: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=88831

Hope that helps!

[Javolenus]

Hi hcrof,

That's great feedback - many thanks indeed. I definitely need more time, knowledge and practice in order to get familiar with the modern battlefield environment. I'll check out your link.

I'm grateful for the info re. infantry doctrine and acceptable casualty figures, as I'm a novice who just stumbled on this game by accident and got interested. I don't know, but maybe the mission briefings should include info on acceptable casualties, in order to give newcomers an idea of what's expected? Well, that's just a thought.

But I'm finding the game very absorbing - especially as it seems more like a simulation than traditional PC game.

[Chainsaw]

in some missions it does mention "keep casualtys below 10%" etc. or sometimes "make sure to keep your forces in fighting condition" or similar.

in the begining I had allot of casualtys to, before I got that feeling when its time to dismount and fight infantry and when I can charge mounted and take the enemy with suprise.

I always thinks 25% casualtys is bad, 10% is okey. 50% casualtys is pure failure. but its war and you do take casualtys, just try to minimize them. I often do a move, then reacts and thinks "I would never do that myself in real life" and cancel the move and reroute the move or just dont do it.

so a good tip is to think "would I do that in real life?" before doing something stupid.

my biggest casualtys comes from two things:

-supprises. I had no clue that area was mined, that ATGM wasnt spotted or reported it could be there.... just bad luck

-failures. I did a silly move, like sending a squad across a street without firecover and smoke when its a full war going around on that street.

no 1 cant be helped much, but no2 can.

[Javolenus]

Hi Chainsaw,

That's good advice and at this stage I sure need it. I've been playing the 3rd scenario in the Brit campaign and trying to apply what I've learned from you guys. I still got some work to do because, although my infantry causalties are now lower, I'm losing vehicles! But this is a fascinating game and I'm determined to improve my performance. I think I need to be even more cautious and not look for quick results - I guess it's like a game of chess: you gradually improve your position until a win becomes inevitable. Thanks again for the feedback - much appreciated.

[MikeyD]

A good piece of advice is to search the web for real-world military small unit strategy & tactics manuals. A good deal of the military literature is directly applicable to the game with very little fudging to account for the game engine. Large scale maneuver and logistics are of course outside the scope of the game, but the chapers on patoons doing a cordon search. etc. are enlightening.

[Javolenus]

Hi MikeyD,

That's an interesting point - I'll certainly act on this advice.

What I'm discovering about this game is that you can't treat it casually - which is great, because I've been getting bored and restless with PC gaming recently. But this battlefield sim is a challenge and I guess I'm still at the bottom of a learning curve. Thanks again for the feedback.

[phil stanbridge]

I was just about to post something along the lines of struggling with the British campaign - how on earth did you do so well in the first mission? I've just been awarded a draw but I lost 14 KIA, 8 wounded, and lost two vehicles. I inflicted about 80 casualties. So that is not good odds in my book. I was trying to keep reserves of artillery and vehicles/men for later missions - I'm not entirely sure what is carried forward. I know mission 2 is quite a challenge so I wanted to keep a surplus of kit back for it just in case.

Also, do you run the missions to the natural end or do you stop them if you feel you achieve the goals?

[Javolenus]

Hi Phil,

I only just started playing the game. So far, I always continue missions until the time is up. I've been playing on 'Veteran' setting. Here's what I did on the first Brit scenario:

1. Two Scimitars on the road, the rest spread out on either flank. The remaining units held back. I sent the central two Scimitars up the road as far as the abandoned cars then stopped. From the first off, these two are pumping lead into the two small buildings leading into the compound. But I don't want to demolish these buildings, just clear them out. The flankers speed up to the Alpha line, pouring small arms fire into those first two buildings. The remaining units move up and take post behind the two central Scimitars. When I'm satisfied the first two buildings are clear, I put a spotter and AT guy on the roofs. When my first reinforcements arrive, I put C2 units in these buildings.

2. I fan out the Scimitars to dish out long-range suppressive fire across the compound. I keep them in an arc just in front of those first two little buildings that lead into the compound, which I now occupy. When I get Inf. reinforcements, I keep them mounted, but keep their vehicles out of harm's way, using the my two occupied buildings as cover.

3. I send a couple of Scimitars plus a C2 unit speeding up the right flank towards the checkpoint at the far end of the compound. Using various buildings as cover from the Barracks, these vehicles pump lead into the checkpoint and also the storage complex. At this stage I'm just using suppressive fire against suspected enemy positions, while aiming to occupy buildings at both ends of the complex. Eventually, I get the C2 unit into the checkpoint. And after the storage buildings have been raked, I send the Inf. vehicles up the right flank, with the aim of occupying the storage buildings. After the Inf. vehicles spray each storage building, I dismount the Inf. and occupy these buildings (making sure that the Inf. only have to cross a couple of metres from vehicle to doorway). I now control the whole right-hand half of the complex. By now, the enemy is pretty much bottled up in the Barracks and nearby buildings. I use a couple of Scimitars to suppress the Pre-Fab Buildings behind the Barracks. I keep switching positions, scared that if I keep the Scimitars in one spot for too long, they'll get hit.

4. With spotters in place I call in fire support on the Barracks and give it a good plastering. Meanwhile, more reinforcements have arrived and I switch my attention to the left-hand side of the complex. There's a group of 3 buildings in front of the Barracks and that's my next target. Same story: long-range suppressive fire, followed by close-up fire from Inf. vehicles, followed by Inf. occupation of buildings. Meanwhile, the Barracks is being plastered by fire support and the Pre-Fab Buildings are still being raked.

5. While keeping up the pressure, I move my Inf. units into any adjacent buildings, hoping to find the various scenario objectives. While gaining some success, I don't find everything. By now the time limit is almost up. I've taken only a couple of casualties - 2 KIA and a few more wounded. It's taken a lot of time and patience, and I deliberately avoided an assault on the barracks, and I have failed to find the secret documents or whatever. Nevertheless, when the scenario is over I've gained a major victory.

Well, that was basically how it was for me. I got comparatively few positive enemy contacts - just lots of Question Marks everywhere. I found the scenario quite tense but tried to be patient. I think I took some risks and probably broke some golden rules, but I got no military training or background, so I just played this like I'd play chess.

I didn't keep any units back for the next mission, but concentrated on achieving what I could in the given scenario. I was scared that I'd run out of ammo, so tended to 'Clear Target' every so often, keeping some units firing while others rested. That said, I think some units did run dry.

I guess that, in general, I felt that my main assets were speed and firepower. I moved my vehicles around on 'Quick' or 'Fast' mode. And kept my Inf. mounted, ready for quick deployment. I deliberately tried to get a presence at both ends of the compound, in order to unbalance the enemy, as well as improve my spotting. I then 'joined hands' by occupying the long storage complex. I was wary of tackling the Barracks and opted to flatten it with off-map firepower.

[theFightingSeabee]

Javolenus,

For a novice you have a very good grasp of the tactics. The following are some of my general rules:

*Lead from the front, not from the rear! (ok, doesn't exactly pertain to cmsf, but still..)

*Think of your guys as real men, and you as their commander. You don't want to be writing letters to Moms about how great their sons were. Be as safe as possible and don't sacrifice men. The US Army, Marines, and the Brits will not sacrifice their men unless absolutely necessary. No human waves as blue unless circumstances are dire.

*Use your units as a team, covering one another when possible, watching eachothers backs.

*Use smoke, artillery, and air cover.

*When in doubt, dismount. One RPG can kill a lot of guys in one vehicle.

I'm sure there's tons more I can think of, but those are major points. And this game does rock, and it is the most realistic game of it's type. That's what makes it so cool to me. No other pc game can come close to providing realistic and fun modern tactical experience than CMSF. Glad you found it.

[Javolenus]

Hi Seabee and many thanks for the response - I really appreciate it. I had no military training and was a bit of a hippy in my youth, but as I got older I got interested in historical stuff as well as military stuff. I played a lot of chess, which taught me to think in terms of objectives, and although I played some strategy PC games, nothing in my experience compares to this current game. I'll definitely take all your suggestions onboard, and I am currently reading some US Army field manuals, in order to improve my knowledge and also to give me a working vocabulary for military concepts. I like the idea of researching some concepts and then trying them out in the game. If I can achieve the scenario objectives while keeping casualties to an absolute minimum, then I'll feel rewarded.

[phil stanbridge]

Interesting response thanks very much.

I tend to find my armour and AFVs very vulnerable to even small arms fire and so I do my best to keep the units back - dismounting the infantry well in advance and sending them in. Unfortunately I may need to address this tactic and my squads get plastered as they run to the waypoint! The problem is no matter how far back I keep my warriors et al they seem ridiculously vulnerable to AK's and other small arms, let alone the RPGs and guided missiles. Bits fall off! So I have kept them well back priro. I will use your guidance and see how I fair. I play WEGO on veteran level too.

I just played the crossroads mission (I think it was) and that was my best victory to date. I lost 4 KIA and 8 wounded, with two vehicle losses although one tank was immobilised and another was quite badly damaged as well. I inflicted huge losses this time round however. I tried to flank the enemy as quickly as possible, and one of my tanks managed to knock out 3 T72s, and 6 BMPs plus assorted infantry before he got hit by a ATGM from a fair distance. Although damaged he kept on plugging away. I tried to use speed and firepower but I have a lot to learn! My infantry is so vulnerable it's sickening! The next big mission is terrible! About 10 KIA with dozens of casualties so far Back to the drawing board!

[Javolenus]

Hi Phil,

Sounds like you did better at the crossroads than me. I made a real mess of it, but now realise that the key to the position is the high ground that covers the approaches to the crossroads and the 1st bridge. I made some elementary mistakes and lost too many men. Having learned some stuff from you guys and also from US Army literature, I'm gonna start the Brit campaign again and apply what I've learned.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

While new to CMSF I have a lot of miniature wargaming experience and read a lot of military history including present day conflicts which I draw upon to help with the tactics here.

I find fire and manouvre tactics work well in suppressing enemy fire but caution must be balanced with agression as too much of the latter results in higher casualties. For NATO forces in this combat environment anything much over 10% is something I would regard as bad. More than 20 or 30% I would regard as a failure as I, as their commander, would be responsible for my men as others pointed out earlier,

It is a good idea to read the scenario briefing carefully as this may contain important information you need to know, for example any Rules of Emgagement. Gratuitously blasting that local mosque, school or hospital contrary to your ROE might be a very bad thing cis a vis your victory conditions.

Where you can employ targeted air and artillery support - but not too close to your own troops.

Don't drive unsupported armoured vehicles into urban areas. Remember what happened to the Russians in Grozny a few years ago.

When fighting insurgents remember that they will often have IEDs and even suicide bombers. Some insurgent types can be very hard to spotSome of them may well be fanatical as well. This can do a lot of damage to your force so don't undersestimate this apparently lightly equipped force.

If playing as the Syrians it is probably not healthy to get involved in a shooting match with M1A2s and Apaches unless you have the Syrian equipment and perhaps not even then. Target what you can kill such as Bradleys, Strikers and dismounted infantry. Use the terrain to suck the NATO forces into a close range firefight where it is more difficullt for them to call in air and artillery support for fear of hitting their own troops. Use the Viet Cong/NVA style "hugging" tactic to make this even more effective. Fight in close terrain such as built up areas, using the cover to protect your own forces and try to deny it to the NATO forces who are more vulnerable in the open streets. An RPG at close range might well knock out even an M1A2 if fired into the right target aspect (eg flank or roof armour) while the poor old Striker is meat on the table. Where you can use mines and IEDs, particularly to funnel NATO forces into a killing zone. In short, for the Syrians, think like a guerilla.

[Javolenus]

Hi there and many thanks for this reply. That's excellent advice and I'll take it onboard. I think you made a very good point about balancing caution and agression - something I'll watch out for in the future.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Of course, the US AFV I have really come to hate is the Stryker as all its variants are far too vulnerable in a tank battle which it really does not seem designed for, The 105mm gun variant is ok but the armour is terrible. If available I would not sent the Strykers in without at least a platoon or two of M1A2s if expecting armour in the opposition.

However, if the oppositon is insurgent types then the Strykers are not bad. Still vulnnerable in towns so here I think it would pay to dismount their infantry, remembering to aquire any heavy weapons like the Javelinthat you think you might need and use the vehicle's weapons to assist in suppressing enemy positions. In an urban environemnt make sure infantry and armour work together.

Also, remember to use smoke particularly if the enemy has poor night vision equipment. The US, even infantry, will often have good night vision capabilites so use that advantage.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Oh, and don't be Captain America :-)

[Javolenus]

That's really good advice about using smoke. I never really thought about using it at night, but now I'm going to try it. Very neat. Thanks a lot - I appreciate the help.

[SSG Grymm]

My son bought this game a while ago and I tried it then, but just recently started really playing it and enjoying it enough to buy the 2 expansions(just more time on my hands now, LOL).

But as a retired active duty cavalry scout, with a handful of combat tours, it does take some getting used to, to play and win. I found myself trying to relying on the units to use too much common sense at first. They need to really be babysat. The USMC campaign can get difficult as there just seems to be alot of units to control. You get sucked into a small unit action and suddenly you've lost 2 trucks, a squad and a machine gun team on the other side of the map. I'd love if they gave you some sort of contact report or SITREP so you could know they needed some looking at.

The basic concepts of fire and manuver, covering fires seem fine, ect. I'm a bit disappointed with some aspects, but overall a very fun and well done game.

[Javolenus]

That's a really good point about having an in-game SITREP. For example, I'd like it if I got some kind of message telling me if a guy or vehicle had been hit. OK, you can get the info by using your eyes or by selecting the 'Ceasefire' menu option to check on casualties, but, unless I've missed something, there are no SITREP functions.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Yes, it is easy to get sucked into the small unit action. I guess you just have to remember who and what you are supposed to be in this game,i.e. a company, battlegroup or battalion level commander. Every so often it is a good idea to pause the game and zoom out to look at the whole battlefield situation or even zoom out so you can see the battle developing.

In a small action where you are commanding just a platoon or two then you can really get stuck into the action although it is still important to maintain overall situational awareness.

As a wargame we are never going to get total realism and certainly some aspects are going to be unrealistic.

In terms of giving orders I try to develop an overall plan and give my units orders apporpriate to what I want them to do, for instance the mortars to conduct a fire mission on the village, 1st platoon will move to an overwatch position to give covering fire where needed while 3rd platoon assautlts through and clears the objective. 2nd platoon is the reserve. The M1A2 platoon will move with 3rd platoon. Then I let them get on with it while I observe developments and decide when to commit the reserve or change the plan if appropriate to do so.

Try to think in terms of overall battlefield commander rather than all his subordinates.

[SSG Grymm]

I don't disagree and its my own fault for getting sucked into small unit actions as thats what I was focused on for so long. And CMSF is a great game, as realistic as I've seen. I used to think Close Combat was a awesome game with they bought in air support. CC:BotB and CC:Normandy were a blast but don't compare to CMSF.

But as all career soldiers I spent some time "riding a desk". I was forutnate enough to do mine in the S-3(Ops) shop of a cavalry squadron. Even the SQDN commander would get focused on a individual troop or even platoon if they were in heavy contact untill he heard that another was engaged or had a substantial spot report.

I understand this is a computer game, thank god for that, I couldn't imagine writing the amount of letters I would need to learning to play this game, LOL. I was just offering a suggestion for those that have the ability to make future changes.