Marine Squad TO&E and M-32

[Alan8325]

I've read on these forums a while back that after testing by Marines in Iraq, the M-32 mgl will not be adopted at a replacement for the M16/M203 combo in Marine squads as it is shown in CM:SF. There was even a video of a Marine using one in Iraq saying that he didn't like it.

I can't, however, find any forum posts on the M-32, the video mentioned, or any info online about the current status of M-32 deployment. What does the current real-life weapon loadout of a Marine squad look like and does anyone know if or why the M-32 will not be used?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Well, I think the lack of popularity might be because it's a bulky piece of kit which six shot capacity doesn't dramatically increase capability over the M203/M320. Soldiers REALLY dislike carrying more stuff then they need.

And when it comes down to it I would rather hold a rifle+UGL then a dedicated grenade launcher, for those unexpected moments.

*edit*

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=86449

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, this was one of the rare cases when we guessed wrong I actually have some actual Marines TO&E which shows the M32 allocations. I guess they got ahead of themselves.

The M32 does, however, have a huge advantage when you need to put down a lot of firepower very quickly. The thing is that in Iraq and Afghanistan those situations are likely to be the exception rather than the rule. Therefore, for COIN Ops I can definitely see the M32 as being an overall negative.

I don't know what the official story is on the M32 adoption as it stands now. I've seen nothing to suggest it's completely out of the running, but it's also clear that the plan they had back in 2006/2007 is dead as it was originally conceived.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I had to rummage for this old photo. The inset "real world' pict is of the Marine Corps actively sowing disinformation in order to mess with Steve's mind

Since this is a speculative title, what's the chance that the Marines would've approved the M32 if faced with a traditional ground war in Syria? Because they'd need the extra firepower against substantial regualr infantry. Sounds posssible.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct. There are all sorts of "what-ifs" that change when you think about the differences of the Syrian setting vs. some place like Iraq or Afghanistan. Some projects would be sped up, others abandoned or scaled back. New ones would come into being quickly, ones on paper would be shelved.

My guess is that the Marines would opt to have some M-32s stashed in their rides alongside their AT-136s and ILAWs, but that they likely wouldn't go out into the field with them as standard equipment. The only complicating factor here is that someone would have to trade in their M-16 for an M-4, which creates all kinds of logistics issues or them.

Steve

[Alan8325]

I searched again using the word "Milkor" and found that old thread whereas "M32", "M-32" and "MGL" turned up nothing...strange.

It seems like the M16/M203 would allow much greater flexibility and quickness in switching between 5.56 and 40mm for different target types compared to the M32/M4 for an individual soldier. I guess theoretically the guy with the M32 in a well-coordinated team would have the 5.56 support from the others with M16s and M249s. I don't know how it actually worked out in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is the M32/M4 combo in CM:SF actually modeled with the correct weight to simulate a bulkier loadout than M16/M203? Perhaps adding some time to switch between weapons would make the combo more realistic so a single guy with M32/M4 can't "Rambo" along with instant weapon switching.

[Battlefront.com]

A tester, and Marine, found this article written earlier this year. The initial order was supposedly for 5,000 M32s, but now it seems it's about half that. As stated above in this thread, it would appear the Marines are still on the fence about how to employ it BUT are still moving to deploy very large numbers of them.

Steve

Use of multishot grenade launchers to grow

By Dan Lamothe - Staff writer

Posted : Thursday Feb 5, 2009 10:41:57 EST

MARINE CORPS BASE QUANTICO, Va. — Prompted by its success in defending against convoy attacks and ambushes, the Corps will vastly expand the availability of a 40mm, six-shot rotational grenade launcher first fielded in Iraq on an experimental basis in 2006.

For the first time, the launchers will be fielded “across the board,” said Patrick Cantwell, a former captain who now works as the Corps’ small arms capability integration officer. The weapons will be assigned to headquarters units and distributed upon the request of individual unit commanders, going to everyone from military police to infantry and logistics units.

“We moved very quickly ... and got those initial ones out there and have been very happy with it based on the operational usage,” Cantwell said. “We have basically expanded the role of that system, and we’re looking to make it a permanent part of the Marine Corps inventory.”

The Corps plans to purchase 2,118 multishot grenade launchers, Cantwell said, about 10 times the number currently fielded. No requests for proposals have been issued yet, and the quantity of launchers to be ordered could change before the RFP hits the streets, based on cost and how long the weapon is expected to last, Cantwell said.

Marine Corps Systems Command first purchased about 210 M32 multishot grenade launchers from Tucson, Ariz.-based Milkor USA after commanders in the field sought them through a universal urgent needs statement, said Capt. Geraldine Carey, a SysCom spokeswoman. The cost of the launchers purchased was not available.

The project was called for in 2004, after Marine gunners decided at a symposium that the Corps needed an alternative with more punch than the M203 grenade launcher, a single-shot auxiliary weapon to the M16 rifle that gives small units the ability to provide their own indirect fire support.

Milkor is working under the assumption that the Corps may eventually expand the fielding of the M32 until there is at least one in every infantry squad, said Richard Solberg Jr., a company spokesman. It plans to offer the Corps not only more M32s, but its new Mark 14, a multishot grenade launcher that performs “identically” in testing.

U.S. Special Operations Command began fielding 300 Mark 14 launchers in January, Solberg said.

“This next go-around, the Marines are going to have that option,” Solberg said of the Mark 14. “We obviously want to get lighter, faster and quicker for the Marines.”

Brazilian, Italian and South African militaries have carried multishot grenade launchers for years, but the M32 offered a new forward grip and scope, which was mounted to the top rail and eliminated the old leaf sights that appeared on the M203. The scope allowed a Marine to follow the grenade to the target and immediately adjust and follow up with additional fire.

The Corps must hold an open competition for the weapon’s contract, so the new grenade launcher may not be the same brand, officials stressed. The specifications for the new launcher include:

• Semiautomatic fire.

• Revolving action, with a 5.5-inch chamber.

• The ability to fire rounds at least 150 meters accurately.

• Weight of no more than 16 pounds when unloaded.

• A 32-inch stock, collapsible to 28 inches.

The Milkor M32 weighs 14.2 pounds unloaded and 18.2 pounds with ammunition, company officials said. Its specs meet all of the Corps’ other requirements for the next-generation launcher.

The Mark 14 model also meets the specs, but it varies from the M32 because it offers a shorter barrel (8 inches instead of 12), a stronger stock and a grip styled after the M16 rifle, designed to save the services money in replacement parts.

Despite its shorter barrel, the Mark 14 weighs the same as the M32 because its receiver, stock and other parts of the weapon were beefed up. The company made the modifications in anticipation of fielding a future “medium velocity” round sought by SOCom, which could travel between 600 and 1,000 meters — 400 meters farther than the M32’s rounds, Solberg said.

The Corps also is training Marines to fire a variety of nonlethal ammunition with the M32, according to a March 2008 letter sent to Milkor from an instructor at the Interservice Nonlethal Individual Weapons Instructor Course at Fort Leonard Wood, Mo. The ammunition includes sponge grenades, foam batons, and rubber balls, the letter said.

The Corps will not require units to take the multishot launcher on missions, because of its weight and the size of its rounds, and will continue to field the M203, Cantwell said. Instead, the multishot launcher will serve as an “additive” weapon, mainly in convoy, urban or defensive situations.

“We didn’t want to give it to everybody and say, ‘You have to take it,’ so what we’ve done is give them the flexibility,” Cantwell said. “Convoys are a big [situation] where ... it performs very well, and just about every Marine unit out there is doing convoys.”

[MikeyD]

The Corps plans to purchase 2,118 multishot grenade launchers

Remember, we're talking the Marines, not the Army. To the Marines 2,118 is a large number. If it were the Army, 2118 of anything gets swallowed up never to be heard from again.