Semi OT - Normandy Book's?

[GillFish]

Overall Campaign:

"Overlord" by Hastings (somewhat dated, and in part responsible for a wave of very interesting books in the 90's that challenged it's central thesis)

"Decision in Normandy" D'Este (also dated, and some of his conclusions are debatable, or flat out wrong. But nevertheless provides a workable campaign overview)

JonS

I'm curious about which of D'Este's conclusions you find debatable. Can you list one or two? This request is not meant to be belligerent, I'm just genuinely interested. Also, is there a more current campaign book you can recommend (besides Beevor's, which I've heard is a re-hash of existing sources). I personally am waiting for Rick Atkinson's third book in the Liberation Trilogy.

Thanks

P.S. That's the same Beevor review I'd read.

[JonS]

Gill,

one off the top of my head: D'Este expends considerable ink describing how perfidious the British were by retaining thousands (tens of thousands?) of troops in the UK while forces in France were screaming for reinforcements. Then coyly mentions that this might need further research. Well, it turns out that he completely misread the source he was refering to, and the British were literally down to their last couple of hundred Class 1 soldiers (the detailed refutation is in "Collossal Cracks").

It's quite a while since I've read DiN, but I remember being underwhelmed by it for other reasons too. To be fair, that could in large part be because I didn't read it till sometime in the late 90's or early this century - that is, about 20 years after it came out, and several years after I'd read things like Blackburn's "The Guns of Normandy". There's also a bit of cultural bias - as I recall, D'Este has a strong pro-US and pro-Patton streak, which didn't sit well with me.

As for other overall campaign histories ... the funny thing is that I think that Hastings (which I have a soft spot for, although for various reasons I've gone off Hastings as a historian), D'Este, and now Beevor, are probably about it. I, too, am looking forward to Atkinson's third book, but I don't think it'll rock the boat too much in this respect. He has a strong focus on the US Forces, which is fine, but does mean that - I think - his book will largely be about the western flank of Normandy, 2/3rds of Op Market, the Bulge, and South and Central Germany, which is understandable, logical, yet disappointing all at the same time. I'm viewing Atkinson's book more as a supplement to the relevant Green Books, rather than a replacement for either H, D'e, or B.

There have been some very good books about Normandy (many listed in this thread), especially over the last 10-15 years, but they have all been on aspects of it, rather than trying to tackle the whole darn thing. Perhaps because Hastings and D'Este have been the standard for so long.

If you know nothing - or next to nothing - about Normandy, I suppose any of the three overarching campaign histories are perfectly serviceable. But once you move on from those and start doing some more detailed reading, the deficiencies in all of them (note: I haven't read Beevor's book, and don't really intend to either) start to become apparent.

Although by NO means exhaustive, there's an little insight to the kinds of Normandy books I read here:

http://www.librarything.com/catalog/JonSowden

Edit to add: Looking at Stone&Stone's grouping of Normandy Campaign books I do see a couple of other potential overviews:

* Belchem, Major-General David. Victory In Normandy (heard bad, bad things about this)

* Belfield, Eversley and H. Essame. The Battle For Normandy (primarily British view?)

* Brooks, Victor. The Normandy Campaign, 6 June - 25 August 1944 (dunno. Seems to have sunk without a trace?)

* Buckley, John (editor). The Normandy Campaign 1944: Sixty Years On (essays on aspects, not an overview, IIRC. One I'd like to have though)

* Hart, Russell A. Clash of Arms: How the Allies Won in Normandy

* Weigley, Russell. Eisenhower’s Lieutenants: The Campaign of France and Germany, 1944-1945

[GillFish]

JonS,

Thanks for the extensive reply. I did notice that Hastings and D’Este had differing opinions about Montgomery, and that Hastings explicitly mentioned England’s manpower shortage. At the time I thought Hastings must have written his book much later than D and therefore had fresher information available, but the copyrights on both books are within one year of another (D 1983, H 1984). I’ll keep an eye out for the Patton bias if I re-read the book; I’m afraid I’m too casual of a reader to pick up on such subtleties.

Thank’s for attaching the booklist; some interesting titles I’ll have to look up. At the risk of hijacking this thread, may I recommend Adrian Goldworthy’s “The Punic Wars” and Donald Kagan’s “Peloponnesian Wars” to augment your interest in ancient history (which is about the extent of my ancient warfare library)?

Back to lurking now....

[GillFish]

Since both Balkowski and Reynolds were mentioned in this post, I’d suggest “Eagles and Bulldogs in Normandy” by Michael Reynolds, a comparison between the British 3rd and the American 29th Division performance during the opening days of D-day. Good maps and appendix.

[JonS]

Gill,

no problem. Andf thanks for your reccomendations ... but ... I don't know when I'll get to them. I got those Ancients books many years ago when I was bored. Life has become, er, fuller since then which is both good and not so good

I've seen "E&B" around, and heard some good things about it, but I was underwhelmed by Reynold's book on I SS PzKorps in Nomandy so have given his other books a pass.

Regards

Jon

[Sgt Joch]

after reading the internet reviews, I also ordered:

Beyond the Beachhead

Six Armies and

Cinderella Army, Copp's latest book which follows the canadians from Normandy to the end of the war.

I am also tempted by D'Este's "Decision in Normandy", which appears to be well researched but Copp in "Fields of Fire" was very critical of his analysis and conclusions. Anyone have a second opinion?

Regarding Keegan's book, considering the continuing interest in NWE 44-45, I am surprised there are not more recent campaign level books covering the whole normandy campaign. Keegan's book was published in 1982 and D'Este's book in 1983.

[TempV]

Hmm, are the Osprey titles (Falaise Pocket, Caen etc.) good for reading concerning subject of the topic?

[JonS]

Osprey books are nicely produced, well written, and lushly illustrated. Yet, to me, they seem like poor value for money. They aren't cheap, and the information in them seems to be - at best - summary compilations of other sources.

Having a very quick look at Amazon, they seem to generally be about the US$10-15 mark. For that price, you could buy something from the Stackpole Mil Hist Series, for example, that's likely to have a LOT more information and detail and research embedded in it.

For example, compare this: Stackpole, Normandy

to this: Osprey, Normandy

OTOH, for specialist, niche topics (such as "D-Day Fortifications in Normandy"), they are probably as good as anything that's readily available. Also, well known authors - such as Zaloga, Shores, and Griffith - appear to use Osprey to create a sustainable career for themselves, while they work on more substantial books.

Jon

[Michael Emrys]

I am also tempted by D'Este's "Decision in Normandy", which appears to be well researched but Copp in "Fields of Fire" was very critical of his analysis and conclusions. Anyone have a second opinion?

I found it to be very uneven. If you really want to study the campaign, by all means read it as there is some useful information to be found in it and he does offer a different slant than you will find in most other versions. But be cautious as you read. Might be best to save him until you have read at least a few other books to compare and check him against.

One thing surprised me as I read it. He is known as a Montgomery hater, and he certainly can be scathing in his criticisms, but at one point in the account he actually defends Montgomery from some criticism that had been leveled against him. I don't recall what the particular issue was, but I do recall my reaction to coming across it. I wasn't expecting anything like that.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Hmm, are the Osprey titles (Falaise Pocket, Caen etc.) good for reading concerning subject of the topic?

I think Jon hit it on the mark. Approach them with a measure of caution. The books are prettily produced, but often contain more flash than content. A few of them are worth having, but by and large, going elsewhere will likely gain you more value for your money. If you do decide you are interested in one of their books, you might try looking for a good used copy.

Michael

[Nicdain]

What about Paul Carell's "Invasion! - They're coming!", a perspective of D-Day from the german side?

I have read the first of Carell books on Eastern Front and it was not bad.

I haven't seen mentioned Cornelius Ryan's "The longest day". Is this considered not a "grognard" reading?

[JonS]

What about Paul Carell's "Invasion! - They're coming!", a perspective of D-Day from the german side?

I have read the first of Carell books on Eastern Front and it was not bad.

Toilet paper. All of it.

I haven't seen mentioned Cornelius Ryan's "The longest day". Is this considered not a "grognard" reading?

No, I wouldn't say that. In fact, I think TLD is still the benchmark for D-Day itself, and certainly the oral history archive that Ryan collected while writing the book is considered a treasure. However, the OP specifically asked for something larger than just D-Day.

[Nicdain]

Toilet paper. All of it.

what makes it toilet paper? Inaccuracy, false information, fictional way of accounting? I remember his book on Barbarossa was interesting to read, but honestly I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to judge it.

[Sgt Joch]

I have never read Carell's works, mostly because of his reputation as an apologist of the Nazi Regime rather than a serious historian.

You have to take into account the fact that he was a member of the Nazi party, the SS and served as Ribbentrop's press secretary in ww2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell

He is also very much part of the old school approach that the German Army was superior but was defeated by the Allies because they had masses of men and equipment.

For example, dealing with the Ostfront, which I am more familiar with, you have a lot of much more superior books that have come out since then, including Erickson's "Road to Stalingrad"/"Road to Berlin" and especially since the Soviet Archives have been made accessible. Glantz alone has released this year the first volume of a three volume series on the Stalingrad campaign.

http://www.amazon.com/Gates-Stalingrad-Soviet-German-Operations-April-August/dp/0700616306/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251986832&sr=8-1

[Nicdain]

Sgt Joch,

thank you for your recommendations. I will take them into account for future readings.

I ended reading Carell's book because it was the only one on Eastern Front translated in italian in my bookshop.

[Soddball]

I don't know if anyone's recommended it, but I liked "Eagles and Bulldogs in Normandy" - it follows the US 29th Division from Omaha to St Lo and the British 4th Division from Sword to Caen. The author's name escapes me.

[sonar]

As I remember it, Caen: Anvil of Victory By Alexander Mckee, is a great read that leads you through the fighting, village by village. Check it out, it's only a few quid on Amazon.

[sonar]

Oh and this, Hill 112 - The battle of the Odon, from the Battleground Europe series, made excellent use of maps and photographs, along with eywitness testimony, to illustrate the battle. I know that these titles don't feature the whole campaign, but if you want to make historical scenarios, they are perfect.

chhers

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Just to reinforce what others have said…

No Holding Back by Brian Reid is the best account of a single battle not just in Normandy… but for all of the campaign in North West Europe….

In the same way as Hell’s Gate by Douglas E Nash is the best account of a single battle from the war on the Eastern Front… (Hell’s Gate is an account of the Korsun Pocket operation of February ’44… )

All the best,

Kip.

[GillFish]

From the German perspective: The Germans in Normandy” by Richard Hargreaves and “D-Day – Piercing the Atlantic Wall” by Robert Kershaw (Amazon has a thorough review on D-Day). “Germans” is written from an individual soldiers viewpoint, but spends some time explaining the disappearance of the Luftwaffe and navy. “D-Day” focuses on the first six days of the invasion.

[GillFish]

I second Sonars “Battleground Europe” recommendation. I have three: “Hill 112”, “Operation Epsom” and “Operation Goodwood”. I find them concise, with good photos of the terrain. The focus is on specific operations, not on the overall campaign. Maps could be better (always the case), but are better than most and are good enough to follow the narrative. Look for them used on Amazon.