Viipuri

[DavidFields]

I give up.

It is on the original disc. Finns against the Russians (August 41--I am playing CMBB/CMAK in historical order).

Even playing non-blind (surrendering after each turn and looking at the positions), I can't, as the Finns, crack the Russian line. Not even the first line--sort of gave up when I saw there was a whole platoon and two MGs even at the flag). I searched, and the discussions on this scenario are too old too find. (just some more recent threads, also disheartened).

I am now re-acquainted with steppe terrain and its characteristics. I have played with suppression fire from the Maxim MGs.

Let me guess: There are some demi-god players from Finland who can win this? Pray tell, how?

[Corvidae]

I'll load it and see. I've never had much luck playing Finns on offence....

[Vark]

Never really bothered with that scenario, but your post got me to play it. Have not finished yet but I have had success in moving two platoons (of A company) down the two lanes of brush flanking the railtrack on the right hand map edge, with the third platoons following with a minutes delay. Equal success with one platoon rushing from the woods to the small clumps of trees facing the graveyard, with the sniper covering. It is game turn 4, I have one casualty, have pinned a squad in a trench and the hill top house and located three different firing positions, which will come under sustained suppressive fire next turn.

Of course the brush might be a trap but I intend to move my troops until I hit the MLR and then use the FO to conceal as they launch a drive for the hill. Company B have moved via the scattered trees and are attempting to launch an assault on the left hand buildings, with the racetrack platoon leading the way. I will keep you posted as to the results.

[tagge]

I too had to install CMBB again and give it a try. And obviously I'm not a demi-god because my both trys so far failed miserably...

Yesterday I tried to concentrate my forces on the left side of the map. They got quickly chewed up by russian mortar and arty fire even though I managed to get my troops pretty far up the map in the cover of scatterd trees. And the anti-tankrifle hiding in the church nails my tank every goddamn time no matter how carefully I try to move it to a usefull position.

I think Vark is on to something. I'll try again today. Maybe this time I'll concentrate my troops to the right edge of the map, lay some smoke with my spotter in front of the church and then a assault the church with a platoon while the rest of my troops areafire the crap out of the church and the trenches to the right of the church. Maybe then I'll get my tank to join the game safely too...

[Vark]

Hmmm, you give me hope, I'll play some more tonight and see what happens. My strategy is the basic Zulu two horns with the inner most platoons, of each horn extended into a pseudo head. Company A and B do not meet in the middle but can mutually support each other, against a human opponent the tactic is risky as a counter attack in the centre could expose the flanks of both horns. The tanks is only going to move when infantry have cleared likely firing positions, though a PTRD will no doubt be a pain somewhere down the road.

So its slowly slowly capture hilley at the moment, oh for a mortar FO and a decent piece of armoured support!

[tagge]

Viipuri retaken! And a major victory too! The fleeing ruskis still greyed out the flag, but otherwise I'm more than satisfied by the result. This was the third try and I saved/loaded about every fifth turn.

Seems that the right flank/center weighted approach is the way to go.

And absolutely the hardest CM-scenario I've ever tried so far.

Am I now promoted to demi-god status?

[Vark]

My first attempt to use two flanking moves failed with a tactical defeat, I got sucked into a never-ending series of firefigts on the left flank and then the 76mm FO added even more pain. Far more successful was the right flank move, but clearing the defences caused too much of a delay. Second attempt saw the left flank stripped of most men, the tank barrel across to the right and Viipuri fell quite easily. As with most scenarios you just have to find the right approach, I do think a 25 turn limit forces is far too short for the operation, but it was fun solving it!

[DavidFields]

Vark: the tank barrel across to the right? Mine was knocked out anytime I tried that.

Tagge: Details would be interesting. I suspect that center, at the church, is as important as advancing on the right flank. And you had enough to take the final objective building? Pray tell.

[tagge]

One of my best moves was to put the Maxim MG, the LMG and my sniper upstairs in that house. Infact, an even better idea would have been putting a second Maxim there instead of the sniper.

[tagge]

Turn 5. I started the assault towards the church at turn #6. The ground before the church was very well covered by smoke at that time.

[tagge]

Turn 15 and 10 more to go. And the rest is history... That one lousy tank was also a key element in retaking Viipuri, providing firepower and protecting my left flank when my troops begun moving through the cemetary.

[Heinrich505]

Tagge,

Very nicely detailed. Smoke? Why the hell didn't I think of that? I tried softening up the church with arty - not much effect. I did almost get into some of the buildings on the left flank, but in the center, I was stuffed at the road just below the church. My tank survived till about turn 12, when I rushed a building on the left flank with it and took a hail of molotovs, before the AT weapon knocked it out.

I'll be returning to try some new tactics. I was going to pull the guys out of the building on the left and use just MGs. You note that this worked quite well. Interesting.

Thanks for your review.

Heinrich505

[tagge]

Thanks!

Putting that Maxim MG in the house at the left really paid off. It almost single-handedly suppressed the enemy at the left flank end kept they’re house-to-house advancing troops alerted. I didn’t remember the HMG’s being THAT effective, not at least in any PBEM-battles against my friends… J Maybe the Maxim-gunner just had a really good day in Viipuri. OK, it had two sidekicks (the LMG and the sharpshooter) that also performed very well, but you could replace the LMG or the sniper with a second Maxim.

Laying thick smoke in front of the church was also a very crucial move. Most of the Russians are deployed inside houses and it is, as Heinrich505 pointed out, a rather pointless effort to bombard them. Aiming the fire at the trenches in front and to the right of the cemetery could be a good idea, but I think the smokescreen really sealed the deal and made it possible to advance to the church without too heavy infantry losses.

Going in from the center (and just a tad to the left of the church) was also one of my more cunning plans. And I mean going in EXACTLY were the arrow is drawn (in the last pic) because then your troops get good cover from the cemetery ground that sinks just enough to create a nice passage through the cemetery.

When the church is captured you should bring in your tank, or whenever you get a confirmed kill on that nasty anti-tank rifle. The anti-tank gun is not a big threat at any time if you move the tank in from the right side of the church. And remember to keep a Molotov cocktail distance to the Russian squads!

The approach through the center of the map also means that the single Russian mortar up in the left corner is unemployed and they’re spotter doesn’t have anything to target.

I agree with Vark that the time limit of 25 turns makes you rush things with means more losses on your side. Maybe 30 turns would be ideal? But then again, war’s like that I guess.

And yes, it was fun solving it. Although it first seemed hopeless…

[Vark]

First question, how do you get a screen shot posted?

Spolier below******Spoiler below********* Spoiler below**********

Rankorian: I used the FO to fire a pre-plotted smoke mission to the right of the church, after it had matured the tank used the roads to move quickly to the house/hut infront of the church. It then moved behind the building and used the slope of the hill to terrain mask. The hill is deceptively sloped as my assaulting troops found out, as they only had LOS to the middle trench, when they were too close, and supporting fire was blocked. Result 7 casualties in seemingly as many seconds!

Once the tank has safely completed its redeployment (achieved three times in a row) the right flank trench and the defences in the graveyard are easily cracked, as the presence of the tank impinged on avenues for counter-attack and often precipitated the surrender of nearby units. I made sure it was always buttoned so as not to risk casualties, though once ,after destroying the 35mm AT gun, it advanced precipitously and suffered a shocked result from AT rifle no 2.

The church is also key as it allows a steady infiltration of forces into the centre mass of the defence, whilst offering good protection for the overwatch force. Even with the smoke it still was a bloody fight, as advancing uphill rapidly tired my forces, the maxims were arranged in a platoon and fired en-masse at located targets, concentrating initially on the church.

Tagge, excellent AAR, yes the CO is a complete pain, even with a T-26 parked 25 metres away a crack sniper engaging and two supporting platoons covering, the super-captain and his DP sidekick staved off two seperate assaults from veteran/average troops. The Russian infantry squad legged it quickly, but it was only when the three maxims joined in that better progress was made against the heroic duo. I'd love to show you a screen shot of the grenade battle when the first assault was repulsed, I counted three seperate 'grenades' hovering and two exploding, looking at the plotting screen no less than nine lines of fire were plotted on the CO unit and four on the DP and on two occasions the CO seemed to fight to the last man!!

[tagge]

Tagge, excellent AAR, yes the CO is a complete pain, even with a T-26 parked 25 metres away a crack sniper engaging and two supporting platoons covering, the super-captain and his DP sidekick staved off two seperate assaults from veteran/average troops.

Thanks! And yes, that russian CO & DP duo is hilarious. My tank (at almost point blank), a Maxim MG, two platoons and several HQ's unleashed a firestorm upon them for several turns with no effect whatsoever. Truly amazing, maybe he was Rambos russian ancestor...

[Joachim]

First question, how do you get a screen shot posted?

Use the "Go advanced"-Button instead of "Quick reply". Then there is a "Manage Attachments"-link just below the where you type your post. Follow instructions from there.

Smoke is the only useful thing for small caliber arty if you neither get treebursts nor the target is in the open.

Anybody tried moving the tank behind the Co HQ? IIRC units suffer a morale penalty when armor is behind them.

Gruß

Joachim

[Vark]

Joachim, sorry, I'm being really dumb here, how do I take a screenshot in the first place? Normally a right click brings up the option, not in CM1 though, the search option gave me a way for CMSF but that seemed to have an option not available to CMBB. Be gentle, I am a neophyte in these matters!

[DavidFields]

Smoke.......brilliant. I clearly underuse smoke. In this case it is perfect, since, otherwise, indirect fire produces little damage with the well dug in, or housed troups.

I am very impressed. My sense was that going through the church was the best route, as it makes a lot of enemy units irrelevent (their indirect, the AT gun, and units on the right flank), but I could not find the key. Yes, I noted that the steppes terrain allowed some units to get close, and that the conscripts would break quickly in that event, but.....again, impressive to understand how to redeploy the AFV, and get the Finns infantry to the church/trenches.

I presume Tagge, you had enough left for an assault on the objective building? To completely school me, how did you manage that final push?

[Joachim]

@Vark

The "Print" or "PrintScreen" button works for me (WinXP). On my keyboard it is just to the right of F12. It copies the screen, then you can paste it into Paint, IrfanView, whatever graphics progam you like. Even into Word.

Right click? Hm... that does not work with me

[Vark]

Aha! I will have a play during my holidays and see if I can come up with some half-way decent AAR's.

Rankorian, it will be interesting to see tagge's final assault. I used the T-26 to suppress the maxims in the objective building, but had to make sure it was outside of throwing range! A platoon supported it and the main attack came from the righthand slope, via the factory and the buildings facing the objective. I seem to remember a super-unit lurking in one house that was a pain (it caused 10 casualties), and going via the flank used up valuable minutes. The church was the start line for a company assault, less the tank supporting platoon, its mission to prevent relocation of enemy defences and to fix the defenders in the objective building.

I might fire two smoke missions next time, the first as per the original, centred on the hill, the second to support the final assault, though this will mean the timetable will be stretched. Tagge, I guess 30 turns makes it too easy, Joachim, yes the tank was invaluable in the morale role, units who might regroup and delay the attack surrendered. I did not use it to go behind the dynamic duo though, they probably would have close assaulted it, using their teeth!!

Anymore difficult scenarios I can look at, I had fun with this one.

[DavidFields]

Since all of us seem to actually enjoy this level of detailed tactics analysis.......

1. When I try the scenario again, I likely am not going to try to move a squad down that brush lane on the right--even though it looks so tempting. I never found that to be useful in all my attempts..... Again, the left hook looks appealing, but I found I could not keep my squads concealed, and make any sort of speed. The scenario is intricately designed--traps on both flanks.

2. I was also impressed at how undominating the Crack sniper was.

3. Did either of you find the Stealth attribute useful? Do you think it lowered your casualties assaulting through the initial smoke? (Or did you just go with the + Combat platoons for the initial assault?)

[DavidFields]

As for similar scenarios, I nominate River l'Elle (or something like that) in CMBO: a puzzle, tactically demanding, mostly infantry, with wide infantry movements.

[Vark]

I really do wonder about the efficacy of the HQ ratings, for that matter I wonder about the troop ratings. The first time I played this scenario my green platoon (no stealth bonus) managed to move fast to the group of trees on the right and there they did sterling work helping provide flank protection for their company. That attempt resulted in a draw as my timetable was shredded by Super Captain and his trusty side-kick, DP Boy!

Attempt two, remembering the initial success of the green platoon, I replaced it with a regular platoon and a +1 combat/stealth HQ. Result, units were engaged as soon as they broke cover, and when they reached the trees and engaged in exactly the same action against the two trenches, they fell apart! Similarly, in the final assault, a platoon attacking the last line of resistance had its veteran squad sent packing by a conscript unit but the green unit took on a regular and sent it fleeing. I think it's all to do with the crude mechanic used to simulate these actions, just a virtual die roll, and as anyone who has played with dice know some bizzare results occur.

As for the right flank move, my first ever screenshot in CM shows that at the start of the 15th turn, Company A (orange ellipses) are consolidating their success at the church and the crest line trench and Company B (red ellipses) are beginning to move out on the right. The tank (yellow ellipse) moved from the right flank and now commands the centre (it was firing at rallied units attempting to counter attack).

[Vark]

Ok, I resized the image but now a security token is missing!! Can anyone tell me whats wrong, I'd like to show my screenshot.

[tagge]

I presume Tagge, you had enough left for an assault on the objective building? To completely school me, how did you manage that final push?

By force, luck and (what we in Finland call) "sisu"...

The clock was ticking so I had to push on. Not much finesse in those last moves. Unfortunately I have deleted those last game saves so no screenshots available. No big thing, I just play it again I thought. Yeah, right...

I used my own Great Plan and everything went just fine and by the book until the 15th turn when I started the final assault from the cemetary towards the flaghouse. Then manure really started to hit the fan.

The AT-gun that I thought was out of comission woke up to life and instantly opened up the tincan that used to be my tank. The russian spotter hiding in the house that I stupidly had ignored sent an most impressingly accurate bombardement right in the middle of my infantry troops in the graveyard (very convinient I now realise) where they waited for the "Go!" command. Furthermore CO "Batman" and DP "Robin" arose yet again to completely new dimensions of heroism when they kept back almost the whole B-company and delayed their envolvement in The Final Push. Long story short...

Despite the whole Murphys Lawbook listings of things that can go wrong I managed to squeeze a minor victory out of the disaster. And got the flag too this time! I think this just shows that this is one tough battle and should be taken very seriously every time ;-)

Below is the screenshot of turn 25. Just follow the arrow...

PS Does the Stelth +1 count only when your squad(s) in question are sneaking?