Viipuri

[DavidFields]

I must have played this scenario more than 10 times, with at best a 60/40 loss. (This is when I pushed my AFV forward so that no one owned the flag.

I am just about to move on....one last question....did you use your smoke on turn one, as a pre-planned barrage, or on, say, turn 3?

[tagge]

I am just about to move on....one last question....did you use your smoke on turn one, as a pre-planned barrage, or on, say, turn 3?

The first time it was actually turn 3 and forwards. In the last game it was a pre-planned barrage. I would recomend the latter, it saves a lot of time.

[Heinrich505]

Rankorian,

I was running this at +2 CEB for the AI. I tried a pre-planned and a turn 4 smoke barrage. The pre-planned one left my boys wide open, as I didn't move them up fast enough. I guess "advance" was too slow. Using Q to delay the smoke the second time, I managed to get into the church after working forward with some Movement commands, then advance. I still lost about half my force from flanking fire, and couldn't move forward after that. The AI counter-attacked relentlessly, getting a toe-hold in the church on the corner near the cemetery and trenches on the right. Admittedly, I lost the tank on a lucky shot from somewhere?? which didn't help me any. I would have been able to break the counterattacks with the tank. I eeked out a tactical defeat, and had plenty of fun doing that. The carnage in the church was terrible.

Heinrich505

[DavidFields]

Heinrich505. Excellent. Yes, a turn 1 smoke barrage does not give enough time to get troops in place. The counter-attacking in this scenario was astounding (?programed that way.) To get in the church, did you also have to attack the center trench to distract those troops? I lost about a platoon doing that...as they sneaked toward the enemy when under fire.

Ok, again, I admit there are some betters her (I assume everyone is on EFOW). Can't imagine giving the AI +CEB on this one.

Now, hold onto your chairs....I just won 82% to 18%....and I don't think I need to prove it, once I tell you the slimey way I did it.

1. Use the smoke to move the AFV to the right flank (sliding under the bottom of the hill)

2. Move not a single Finnish soldier.

3. Pound everything on the right flank with the AFV. I went after the Company commander for awhile, but that may have been a waste of time. There seemed to be a bunch of fleeing Conscripts I could attack behind the lines.

4. Get next to the flag on the last turn (not a variable scenario....perhaps this strategy was under consideration?)

5. Axis points for casualties 74. Allied's; 16. The flag's points are split.

Granted, this is REALLY GAMEY. But, it does show one realistic point, which we all realize: squad anti-AFV was terrible for the Russians at this point in the war. I did not even have to reload for any successful hits (my AFV backing up persistently was more annoying)

It would not be long before an AFV with 15mm of steel would be unable to potentially terrorize a dozen Russian squads.

Ok..off to defend that Kalinin/Moscow highway

[Vark]

Rankorian, you were lucky! when I tried leading with armour, too aggressively, the AI redeployed an AT rifle. First shot shocked, second KO'd the gun on the fourth the crew bailed. The poor modeling of Molotovs means the T-26 is king (what other scenario can you say that about them), in reality if it wandered into a BUA without infantry it would be a blazing hulk. Remember, MIA1's in Fallujah were temporarily out of action because of petrol bombs, often when burning petrol went into fighting compartments or injured exposed crew.

The smoke is tricky, I played last night and dropped a pre-planned smoke mission on the church then moved my assaulting troops fast to the base of the hill, in defilade. I then used the tank to clear the Super captain, moving behind the trench had no discernable effect on morale and wasted time (this time fourteen units engaged the Co commander and he still managed to inflict 7 casualties!!) The troops, hiding halfway up the hill, waited until the tank had cleared crest line tench, supported by the right flank, then they mounted an assault on the church. Lost 25% to the defending troops, includng a previously panicked Maxim, who regained morale and set up on the ground floor, even the ATR joined in. The counter attack was shredded by the T-26 and supporting infantry, I even relocated a MG to support, but it jammed after one turn! Once the reinforcing platoon had arrived in the church the Russians defences, surrounding the church, folded unter the fire power.

Final point, when assaulting the super captain I put all my attacking troops on short arcs, and only allowed them to engage when within grenade range. In previous games, although they helped clear the trench most used up most of their ammo and were relegated to secondary roles in the right flank assault on the objective. This time the grenades were depleted but they had 30% of their ammo.

Ah, the Kalinin/Moscow highway, a very atmospheric scenario, liked playing that one as the Russian.

Still cannot show any screenshots, shame, had some good ones showing moves around Viipuri.

[Heinrich505]

Vark,

I too had the tank severly spanked into a pile of broken steel, by that ATR in the church, even as the ground floor of the church was being assaulted directly underneath the ATR boys. Had the tank survived the rush to the church, I could have held off and/or broken the assault from the trench on the right, or the hordes of infantry pouring from the buildings on the left, crossing the cemetery, and dodging into the right-front corner of the church.

Rankorian, yes, I had to distract the trench troops by advancing a platoon up the right side, then into the trees just below the trench. I had a light MG firing for all it was worth as supression fire into the right side of the trench, and it finally broke one of the enemy infantry squads. Only the platoon leader, by himself, crawled into the trench on the left side, holding off the Russians from regaining the trench.

The Russians didn't want to lose that doggone church. The maxim crew on the second floor surrendered as my guys rushed into the church. I didn't move them out, because there was way too much gunfire ripping around. I had a few men upstairs with them, but something curious happened. All of a sudden the surrendered crew was dead. I wasn't paying any attention to them, so I don't know what exactly happened. I strongly suspect that when their comrades broke into the church, the maxim boys tried to re-man their gun, and were cut down. Now I wish I'd watched them closer, or at least moved them out of the church. What a wild struggle.

Heinrich505

[Vark]

Heinrich, a good way to stop the counter attack is to form a base of fire with the three LMG teams and place them on the left flank in the scattered woods under short arcs. When they have sneaked into position then redraw their firing arcs so they cover the likely counter attack routes. The platoon in the 'racetrack' building should again be given short arcs and moved to the first floor, when in position redraw the arcs again. It was this set up that stopped the AT gun from relocating (even though the crew stuck to their guns for far too long) and helped the T-26 shoot up the attacking infantry.

When you are talking about the crest line trench don't forget the platoon commander situated behind, that little sod took caused most of my men to panic in the first platoon. I think the scenario is tough because it exploits the shortcomings of the system, the troops atacking up hill gain no cover adavantage from the slope and cannot area fire with grenades. The troops attacking the church face its transparent shield, unable to get close to the walls for cover and stuff grenades through the windows, finally the lets all panic because we are dashing rule which means the approach lingers too long in the defenders kill zone. Still, thanks for the heads up, I'd never tried the scenario before, it was an interesting puzzle to crack and I'm still occasionally trying to develop the best approach.

[DavidFields]

Well, now I see the basic problem with my initial approaches. I was trying to take the church first...and I did it....once. That is when I lost a platoon distracting the middle trench. I thought I had to do that to get the AT rifle. But the fire on the two squads who made it was tough. The platoon comander behind the trench..... The unit in the woods at the back of the cemetary....I feel as though I know these guys.

Right to left instead.....I can see going back to this one again to try....but maybe later. (But first, can I just send that enemy Company Commander a poisoned letter, and be done with him....yikes he is tough.)

Vark, the diceness of CM is intriguing, I think. Makes it more like poker than chess.

(The Kalinin/Moscow scenario is interesting. I like the way the scenario designer worked the map so an AI German would perform well--lots of trees help the AI infantry. But it again reminds me of why I like infantry scenarios with a couple of AFVs better. Interesting how many of the 1941 scenarios on the original disc are Russian attacks......)

[Vark]

Final attempt (I think), got a major victory with only 50 friendly casualties, the company commander was the usual pain but a more coordinated approach and better attack tempo shattered the Russian defences. Rankorian, the key is right then centre, MG's as base of fire, smoke at the start and the T-26 switching to the right flank. Once the initial breakthrough has been made, switch, go centre, with tank, then right flank.

The Kalinin scenario suffers from the depredations of borg spotting, sure the trees allow the German infantry a chance to fight but against salvos of 76.2mm, guided by supporting infantry they don't last long. The big problem for the Russians is the god almighty traffic jam, that can occur, when your truck mounted reinforcements arrive!!

[spartan1]

Great to see some action again:)

[DavidFields]

Yes, the famous....different combat delay pause traffic jams, in the Kalinin campaign. I don't know whether to master it, or to wait for CM2 to solve it rationally...it will, won't it?

The first attempt I had with the Kalinin/Moscow road was only a draw. Won substantially as Russians the second time.

In some sense, I have almost a moral objection to some scenarios. In this sense: if the absolute winning tactic is to push one's armor ahead of the infantry, does one do it. I have a hard time--almost nauseous when I try it "blind"--the first attempt.

Back to Viipuri, I can see trying it again. But I need to give it a rest...has been too traumatic.

[Vark]

At last, total victory! The secret, due to the borg spotting and the ability the ability to concentrate an unfeasible amount of return fire on identified units, was an artillery barrage,sans smoke, on the church folllowed by a standard company advance. My Maxims, platoon fire power and tank shot me onto the objective, and by turn 10, I had secured the church, the crest line trench and was advancing into the graveyard from two directions. The Super Co and DP boy were buried under a company assault, though some of the defending troops, often green or conscript fought fanatically. One green squad, down to three men, fought off a multi-directional platoon assault, killing the platoon commander and a section of veteran infantry! Still, by turn 25 the objective hex was attacked by three platoons plus tank and taken.

As a Russian in an early war scenario I would have thought the most realistic tactic was to lead with tanks. When I finally got my trucks sorted out a Stuka put paid to my careful organisational and sequential efforts and I then had to spend more time collecting my panicked and shocked troops!

How do you reduce the KB of a screenshot so it can be downloaded, the limit is 19 and mine is 225!!

[DavidFields]

"objective hex"--I sense someone who has been at this gaming for awhile.

Crossing the tank to the center, without smoke is, I think, a challenge. I do think I was too timid in my attack--2 or 3 platoons at the leading edge.

Your second paragraph is about the Kalinin scenario, I believe. The "answer" is to keep the T-34 in the sparse woods. A platoon of them at the base of the lake is a winner. (This scenario had me squinting at the terrain, to determine what was sparse woods.) It may have been Russian doctrine to lead with the tanks, but I have it drilled in me the opposite--infantry ahead spotting. The german Mark-IV is my favorite AFV--as a realistic work horse.

[Vark]

"I sense someone who has been at this gaming for awhile".

First wargame played was SPI's Dreadnought, in 77, then a subscription to S&T (when they included games) and Avalon Hill's "Airforce?" (US strategic bombing of Germany 43-45) started it. Then came more baord games, miniatures and finally role-playing, both board and live action, so yes, your observation is correct.

Whatever emotional effects we ascribe to CM, it still is just a wargame, with pretty playing pieces, objective tiles and no CRT's and obscure rules to look up, thank god! Though it was always nice to play a game, mutually decide a rule needed changing and just get out a pen and pencil and start playing again, not have to wait for patch 1.145a and hope it has your rule change. Some soldier/gamers I knew used their Warpac threat updates to continually revise their modern micro-rules, "Challenger" I believe, to make it as up to date as possible!

I think that the tank crossed successfully because the AT rifle was suppressed by the initial artillery barrage. When it joined forces with a company of infantry supported by an MMG platoon and a supporting platoon (in the racetrack) the outcome was inevitable. I fact my total victory was gained with three platoons trailing, sloppy planning by me. The main assault was with all of A company and only two platoons of B, if I had coordinated better, it would have been a slaughter. As it was, I only took 15% casualties of my total force and inflicted 60% on the Russians, only one surrendered!

[tagge]

At last, total victory!

Way to go Vark! You are hereby officially promoted to Finnish Demi-God status, congratulations!

BTW, have you tried Irfanview? A great little tool that resizes pics nicely. Open/paste your screenshot and then "save as" where you can decide how much compression is applyed to the JPEG-file.

http://www.irfanview.com/

[DavidFields]

Hmmm....I go back to AH Tactics II, in the late 1960s.

The AH game for the strategic bombing of Germany was, I believe, Luftwaffe. It was a struggle to play the game, which was made for 2 persons, into a solitaire game--I used multiple possible strategies, written on paper drawn at random. It was great having the improved fighters (P-51s) to make deeper bombing runs in the later years.

[Heinrich505]

Rankorian,

Yeah, the P51s did help, but when playing as the German side, those extra TA-152s along with the ME-262s would make mincemeat out of a stack of P51s trying to guard their B-17s and B-24s. Ah yes, that was one heck of a game. I did the same thing, writing down three sets of target orders for the bombers, and then pick one at random, while playing it solitaire.

Avalon Hill was the pinacle for the time. I made my younger brother play as the Japanese, using hidden movement, in Guadalcanal. He kept losing track of his units. The US won, of course.

However, then came Squad Leader. A stunning game. After that, nothing could come close to ASL, until, of course, computers took over, and you could actually fight with virtual squads and squad leaders on 3D. CM was, and still is, amazing.

Heinrich505

[DavidFields]

I was...busy...when ASL came out (medical school/Internship/Residency), and regret my that I was not an ASL afficionado.

But I have never regretted the lack of die rolling....could take...minutes to move an AFV, I believe. CC was close to this...especially CC3...just hope I can play CM6, with goggles, in my nursing home.

[Vark]

Luftwaffe!! Not airforce, (a fiendishly difficult game where individual energy states, of planes, had to be recorded and 3D movement plotted on a 2D gaming board!). Heinrich, the wunder fighters were great, but had short legs, and when they came down to refuel could be picked off by swarms of P-51's and 38's who broke away from the big stacks they were escorting. The only convincing German victory was using decoy counters and suckering the USAAF into holding back escorting fighters, when the stacks were revealed I looked on in disbelief! I remember a crappy drab map but beautifull light blue and green counters and order pads that took the best part of a day to plot, we played until the games obvious shortcomings were revealed.

Talking of B-17's, does anyone remember the solitaire/two person game "B-17 Queen of the skies"? Wow, that really was a 'teachable experience', I remember reading "Decision over Schweinfurt" and the damage reports were chillingly replicated in the game.

Tagge, as a recalcitrant Swede you might have to rethink my demi-God status, perhaps a 'not so despised by Finns' title will do!! i will check out your suggestion for the screen shots, what do other people use?

Rankorian, count yourself lucky you never had to play Yaquinto's "Panzer" or SPI's "Airwar" or Enola Games "Warship Commander" (modern naval warfare rules for miniatures). Arghh, two hours later and we had simulated a radar lock and an unsuccessful SSM attack by two destroyers.