wrong german 7.5cm gun penetration data, fix?

[sargemy]

Hey guys,

I have Theater of War installed from DVD, and then patched to the "uber" patch.

Then I installed JSH mod 1.3.1 and then patched it to 1.3.2.

The game runs absolutely fine.

However, while playing, I noticed that the 7.5 cm L/43 gun in the panzer 4 F2 has the same penetration values as the 7.5 cm L/48 in the panzer 4 H and later Stugs. All the values for the APCBC, APCR, and HE shells are the same.

The penetration data seems to be of the earlier L/43 gun (shorter). So the L48 has a disadvantage/mis-represented right now.

From "Achtung Panzer" website http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm#panzer4

The penetration of the L48 gun at 500 against verticle armor is 114mm. This means that at point blank, it should be higher, around 140? and even if then calculated to be at 30 degrees, it should still be above 100mm. But right now it is listed as 93mm at point blank, which makes sense for the L43 gun.

Is there a way that I can fix this myself? or do I need to wait for another patch.

I feel like there should be a patch to change all the guns' penetration values to real world ones.

Thanks.

[Redwolf]

The main point about the L/43 was that it had an extra thickness (but shorter) propellant section in the ammunition to fit the earlier Panzer IV turrets. The performance characteristic of this gun is a little more complex than just implied by the shorter barrel.

The performance of L/43 (early long Pz IV), L/46 (towed Pak) and L/48 (StuG, Jagdpanzer) has been a matter of hot debate since the dawn of time.

Keep in mind that different projectile details and muzzles brakes change the performance, too.

In TOW1 there was the mismatch that Soviet data was at 0 degrees, German data at 30 degrees. This certainly wasn't helpful.

In any case, none of the German 75mm L/4[368] guns should have as low as 93mm penetration at 500 meters at 30 degrees in the first place.

[sargemy]

that is what i noticed too! russian guns have high penetration values for 30 degrees, and german guns have low values for 0 degrees.

someone was biased, lol

question is can we change the data ourselves?

[Redwolf]

that is what i noticed too! russian guns have high penetration values for 30 degrees, and german guns have low values for 0 degrees.

someone was biased, lol

question is can we change the data ourselves?

Nah, and it wouldn't be useful. The usual excuse for the above mismatch is that there is a second database that is used for combat and what we see is only for display. I don't even remotely buy that but that's what they say.

In any case, 93mm is a very low value for any Pak40 variant at 30 degrees and 500m.

But I just remembered that the L/48 might be another variant using the wider but shorter propellant, it wouldn't be as good as the L/46 with the straight cartridge.

[Sneaksie]

Penetration values are for 0 degrees and nobody said that "what we see is only for display".

Penetration values for German and Soviet ammo are from Soviet field tests, and keep in mind that Soviet technique differed from German or US. Allied data was used as-is and because of this Allies actually have an advantage over Germans and Soviets in the game.

Compairing values of different origin (for example, values from German and Soviet sources)from books won't get you anywhere, since they were calculated or tested using different methods.

I can only repeat what i said more than year ago:

Please keep in mind that values calculated theoretically using ideal formula and real life penetration ability of the gun are totally different stories. Our values for Soviet and German equipment are based on tests documentation. Various nations used different methods of gun penetration tests, for example, Soviet tests terms were narrower. Because of this, most values for Russian and German guns are from authentic gunnery tables and gunnery tests data of captured German equipment. Allied guns penetration data was corrected by Battlefront.

If you want, you can replace all values with theoretical data, but this will be the simulation of ideal tanks and guns and will be far from real WW2 engagements. If most wargames just take values from Jentz and such books for German, another books for Russian and Allied guns and throw them together into the damage calculation system, it doesn't mean this is the right thing to do. These values were measured using completely different methods (or much worse, calculated theoretically) and can not be used together 'as is'.

[sargemy]

sneaksie, thanks for the input!

is there a place you can point me to so I can learn to change this values, if i want to, just for fun?

I understand there are going to be differences, etc. it is a game after all, and i just want to have some fun.

this way i can fix myself the same data for two guns thing.

[Sneaksie]

You need to edit ini files in data\guns\Ger directory (or USA or else). This can be done using SFS extractor written by Dr. Jones. They contain data like this:

[base]

Country Ger

Name 75mm_KwK_40_L43

[Properties]

Kalibr 0.075

useHookAsRel False

EffectPreset 070_089mm_Front_2Side

Sound weapons.ger.75mm_kwk_40_l43

EffectMode Single

ReloadTime 6.5 6.5

shotFreq 1

traceFreq 1

Magazines Ger\75mm_PzGr_39_APCBC Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_APCR Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_W_APBC Ger\75mm_Gr_38_HLB_HEAT Ger\75mm_SprGr_34_HE

ammoUsed Ger\75mm_PzGr_39_APCBC Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_APCR Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_W_APBC Ger\75mm_Gr_38_HLB_HEAT Ger\75mm_SprGr_34_HE

AimDistance 0 50 100 500 1000 1500 2000

AimRadius 0.1 0.3 0.8 2.5 4.0 6.5 10.0

ShootHintTimeout 15000

ShootHintRange 500

ShootHintRadius 20

[Ger\75mm_Gr_38_HLB_HEAT]

Ammo Ger\75mm_Gr_38_HLB_HEAT

Speed 450

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 6500

Dispersion 1000 0.40

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Penetration 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

[Ger\75mm_PzGr_39_APCBC]

Ammo Ger\75mm_PzGr_39_APCBC

Speed 740

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 6500

Dispersion 1000 0.30

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Penetration 98 96 83 69 58 48 32 16 0

[Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_APCR]

Ammo Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_APCR

Speed 930

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 6500

Dispersion 1000 0.30

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Penetration 145 139 117 95 74 58 32 19 0

[Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_W_APBC]

Ammo Ger\75mm_PzGr_40_W_APBC

Speed 930

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 6500

Dispersion 1000 0.30

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Penetration 78 77 73 62 37 29 25 19 0

[Ger\75mm_SprGr_34_HE]

Ammo Ger\75mm_SprGr_34_HE

Speed 570

aimMinDist 10

aimMaxDist 2000

HistMaxDist 7680

Dispersion 1000 0.30

LinesH 0 100 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 10000

Penetration 12 12 12 10 10 7 4 3 0

Cumulative values are all zeroes because they are specified in another file (data\ammo\ger\75mm_Gr_38_HLB_HEAT.ini).

This example is from ToW2 but ToW1 uses similar file structure.

[Redwolf]

So the second database thing was only a rumor after all? Thanks for clearing this up, this has been a nagging point for years.

[SlapHappy]

I experimented with these values in TOW 1. The changes you make in the above tables reflect directly in the displayed encyclopedic information....This is the original source that data comes from.

[sargemy]

thanks Sneaksie.

i wont have time to do this soon, but just wondering, after i extract and edit the files with the SFS extractor, do I have to repack it back or can I just leave it in the same directory and the game will automatically use the extracted files?

[Sneaksie]

You can leave it in the same folder (data/guns/ger in this case).

[Redwolf]

None of this changes the fact that the German data is obviously taken from 30 degrees real world values and 0 degrees for the Soviets.

Since it has no been clarified that the previous excuse for this, that there is a separate database for combat inside the engine, is bogus, does that mean the values are plain wrong?

[Knokke]

You dont have to repack anything:

just copy the directory data\guns\Ger\gunname.ini (for example) that you extracted with SFSextractor in ToW main folder and edit the ini file for the gun you want to modify.

This new directory will be used by the game instead of the directory packed inside the SFS file.

I hope this is clear enough.

As a matter of fact, if you have JSH mod installed, this folder data\guns\... already exist in your game main folder, with several ini files in it that have been modified or added by the mod (for example, there is a file for the 50mm_kwk_38_L42 that you can use as reference).

[rune]

ALL,

If what sneaksie is saying is true, then I owe an apology to everyone. I researched all the gun data for german, Russian, and Allied forces and it was proofed by none other the John D. Salt. Ditto for the armour thickness for every tank in the game. When I pointed out during the beta stage the differences, I was told my figures were used and the data showing was just in the encylopedia. Now I see that only the Allied figures were used and it is NOT the case. I don't know why I was told that, and will take that offline, but apologies for repeating what I was told and it being incorrect.

Rune