Intelligence Breakthroughs & Research Chits

[MJY]

Hey all,

As the game is currently situated, whenever you get an intelligence breakthrough (e.g., going from level 1 to level 2 long range air), you lose one research chit that you have previously bought to invest in that area (e.g., if I had previously invested one chit in LR air and got an intell hit I would no longer have any chits in LR air). That is the same thing that happens when you score a "normal" technology advancement.

Would it not make more sense in the event of an intelligence breakthrough to get the increase in technology and not lose that research chit? In other words, shouldn't the intelligence breakthrough be "free?" After all, the intelligence breakthrough is supposed to represent technology you have stolen from your opponents (and you already "paid" for it by investing in your spy/intelligence network in the first place).

Also, intelligence breakthroughs currently only produce advances in areas where your side is currently engaged in technology research (e.g., if I am not currently researching LR air I will never get an intelligence breakthrough in LR air). Might it not be a good idea that intelligence breakthroughs could come in any area of technological development -- even if your side is not currently researching that area?

Think of it. Would I ask my spies to sneak into an office and only photograph plans for weapons I am trying to develop or only tap the phones of a scientist working on the same things my scientists are working on? No. I would task them with stealing anything they can get their hands on! Furthermore, for security reasons, in most cases I wouldn't tell my spies what I was working on in case they get caught or turned by my enemies.

[SeaMonkey]

Its a good point MJY, and I think it would be a good idea that a high level of intelligence would be worth a tech advance in a category you are not necessarily researching.

Makes sense and it would be a further incentive to invest in a tech area that goes largely ignored. Good suggestion.

[Amadeus]

Mmmh, yes and no.

Research is always very expensive. So it makes sense that you have to pay more than once. If you catch a goal in one area the next goal isn’t for free imo.

But yes it might be a good idea that intelligence breakthroughs could come in any area of technological development because of spying out the enemy.

[The K Man]

What exactly is the difference between an "intelligence breakthru" and a normal intel hit? Are there different "odds" of hitting each one? Is there ways to improve the chance of hitting on an "intelligence breakthru"? Obviously the normal intel hit, more chits can improve your chances. Are they both the same?

Due to my "more than occasional" extreme bad luck in getting intel hits, I would still like to see an option added to the game that would allow historical breakthru's that would occur automaticly around a certain date. You could still have the option of researching, and any hits there, would move up that historical date. Similar to the idea of diplomacy and countries. Hungary will join the axis around a particular date. May be before or after. If you get diplo hits, you can make it sooner than later. Granted you will have an idea, when techs are going to hit, but that could change based on the amount of hits you get.

[Logan Hartke]

Research is always very expensive. So it makes sense that you have to pay more than once. If you catch a goal in one area the next goal isn’t for free imo.

This is very true. Ian Hogg once said (talking specifically about German artillery of WWII) that the last 10% of performance is 50% of the cost. That was a direct reference to the cost of research. The difference between a plane that has a maximum speed of 400 mph and costs $100,000 and a plane with a maximum speed of 440 mph might be another $100,000. Similarly, artillery had the same issue.

Compare the German 24cm K 3 gun and the US M1 240mm howitzer. They fired a similar sized round for a similar effect on the target. Both were designed for counter-battery fire, destruction of fortifications, and any other task where the accurate fire of a long-range, large-caliber gun was deemed useful. They were both very accurate, as well. The main difference was that the German gun could fire over 50% further than the American gun. This made the gun itself almost twice as heavy. The German gun had to be broken into 6 loads compared to the US 240mm howitzer's 2 loads. The American gun also achieved a higher rate of fire (2-2.5 rounds for every round the Germans could get off). Finally, it was cheaper. For every K 3 the Germans built, the Americans built more than 20 M1 240mm howitzers.

So, I think that it's just one way of showing the exponential cost of higher level research, something I'd agree with. You want to get from 200 mph to 250 mph with your monoplane fighter? Retractable landing gear will do it for you. Easy and cheap. 250 mph to 300 mph? More streamlining and 200 additional horsepower can probably achieve that. 300 mph to 350 mph? Well, that's going to take a purpose-designed high performance fighter with at least 1000 hp. You're also going to want to go with a thinner wing, too. 350 mph to 400 mph? Now you need a supercharger, and that isn't easy. You're also going to need higher octane fuel. 400 mph to 450 mph? Man, that's not easy. It's going to need a laminar-flow wing, 2000 hp minimum, high-octane fuel with a super-charged engine, etc. 500 mph? You need jet technology.

See what I mean? The cost is really exponential and I think that's reflected.

Logan Hartke

[MJY]

Logan,

I agree with your point regarding the cost of technological developments and improved performance. What I was getting at (to use your example) was the question of what it would cost your armaments industry if your spies, for example, stole plans for a working supercharger. The cost to your scientists to verify the discovery would be minimal (hence my suggestion you not lose a research chit when your intelligence makes a discovery).

I am not suggesting you not pay for the discovery in other ways. To utilize that stolen discovery on the battlefield (i.e., to purchase that faster supercharged fighter), you would still have to pay more. (More expensive weapons are always more expensive.) And repairs would still be more expensive (already reflected in the game).

All I am suggesting is that the scientists you have invested in (i.e., by buy a research chit) continue to do their work. I am proposing they not stop researching simply because your spies made a discovery instead (i.e., you not lose your research chit when your spies make a breakthrough).

About the only rationale I can think of for the current practice of deducting a research chit when you obtain an intelligence breakthrough is if your scientists were, for example, only working on developing a supercharger. In that case, you could argue their efforts were wasted when the spies produced the answer to the problem they were investigating. But that is not likely the way your scientific resources are deployed. Your aviation scientists would be investigating various ways to improve your aircraft (aerodynamics, fuel mixtures, engine improvements, and so on) -- not just one (i.e., superchargers).

Nor is that necessarily how the relationship between research and espionage works. Intelligence agencies sometimes make discoveries in areas your side is not investigating. I don't think the Allies were spending a lot of effort on rockets (either rocket development or counter-measures) until their intelligence agencies began to pick up on stories that the Germans were working on the V-2.

[Logan Hartke]

I agree with your point regarding the cost of technological developments and improved performance. What I was getting at (to use your example) was the question of what it would cost your armaments industry if your spies, for example, stole plans for a working supercharger. The cost to your scientists to verify the discovery would be minimal (hence my suggestion you not lose a research chit when your intelligence makes a discovery).

I follow now. I misunderstood at first and was thinking that you were talking about research chits in general and not just intelligence ones. It would seem then that you would essentially need two separate systems, then, since intelligence just adds to your chances of regular research paying off. Technological advances by espionage and technological advances by research. While I can absolutely see your point, I think that it wouldn't be worth the game changes required to the system to implement it. Take, for example, the Tupolev Tu-4 saga. While that was a stroke of luck leading to B-29s landing on Soviet soil as opposed to a defection or espionage, the lesson remains the same. When they were acquired, Stalin ordered Andrei Tupolev to copy and produce the B-29. Tupolev protested since they were at that stage of development already and to build the B-29 instead would essentially make all their work be for naught. Stalin wanted to go with something he knew worked, however (lower risk) than let Tupolev use his own design. That they did, and while it advanced them technologically to use the B-29/Tu-4, it was the equivalent of flushing much of Tupolev's research and development down the toilet, so in that sense, I can see how it would make sense to lose the chit.

I do think, however, that intelligence should allow for a small chance of being able to increase technology in areas you're not even researching, however. I think your rocket example is a good demonstration of that.

Logan Hartke

[jbnaples]

I have a question about research - what does it mean when the numbers turn red in the research box? When I try to increase beyond level 2 infantry weapons or artillery the numbers go red. It takes my mpp, but will it do the research? I can't find any reference to red numbers in the manual.

Thanks,

JB

[ebitt]

When the numbers go red it means you have reached the maximum level set for that category in the Research menu (2 for Infantry, for example). You can still pour money at the category but it will never increase. You can reclaim the money from the category (at 50% of the cost you incurred).