Marines Campaign *spoliers*

[Clavicula_Nox]

Okay, I'm late and only recently got the Marines module and eagerly began the campaign.

Mission 1 is a lot of fun, but I wondered why the 1.11 patch reduced the number of squads from 3 to 2, and reduced the amount of Artillery and Air support.

I'm currently about 30 minutes into Mission 2, and have been having quite a time with it. I moved 2nd platoon from being in the open, to being in the cover of the buildings on the left flank, and moved my 2 scout / sniper squads back to cover so they're out of the immediate artillery fire. Thus far, I've lost 3 AAVs to enemy artillery (tehy had nowhere to go) and 1 to AT fire (not sure where) and my first platoon has been combing through the rest of the city, taking 3 casualties so far.

Out of nowhere, a squad and a platoon leader materialized on the edge of a screen...right next to an enemy machine gun bunker and trench-line. They took 3 casualties, killed the bunker, and seized the trenchline with some quick mortar fire. They are also under some machine gun fire, and the follow up troops (including a javelin) weren't able to silence them. I think that platoon will end up calling for fire on some enemy hard points.

Anyone else have any trouble on this mission? I have one platoon that will be without transports for the war, and another that is forcing its way through a small town and taking casualties.

[Holman]

*Spoilers on Mission 2 below!*

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Read the briefing and you'll see that those units who materialized on the (north?) edge of the map are marines who have just made an off-map helicopter insertion. Plus, there will be more of them coming. This could be a problem if (like me) you have not yet taken care of the enemy armor that has LOS on their arrival point.

Yeah, it's a tough scenario. I failed several times and learned my lessons. I can't imagine playing it for the first time and not losing a lot of troops along the way.

The key, for me, proved to be getting my artillery observer (and some Javelin teams) up into the mosque towers. From there they could bring down support precisely where I needed it.

[TheVulture]

Don't know how much of this is due to different AI plans / setups, but I didn't have too much trouble with this mission. Or maybe my definition of "not too much trouble" is more casualty-tolerant than yours, 'cos I certainly took losses in the house-to-house fighting in the town. 3 casualties is pretty light - I'd wager you'll take a fair few more than that before you're out of the town, and yet more covering the open ground to the east. Only lost one AAV though, to an AT team hiding somewhere, and the enemy arty never bothered me. Possibly because my mission 1 sniper team holed up in the mosque, and seemed to draw the AI arty, which trashed the area, caused a few causalties to the sniper team (all sniper teams have taken a beating in scenarios throughout the campaign under my gentle leadership), but didn't hurt any of the main marine platoon or vehicles.

But you will take causalties in MOUT, since you can never spot the enemy before they open fire on you. It's split-squad recon by death with rapid and lethal response on the Syrian defenders. And of course, the AI changes mean they bug out of the buildings under fire fairly quickly, and finder a better place to hide, so try to cover their escape routes too. It is slow, patient work.

[Clavicula_Nox]

I ended up replaying this scenario a few times. I think I ended up being happy with 1 KIA and a couple of WIAs, but it was a very tough fight. As an aside; I don't know what to do with the Marine vehicles, or any vehicle for that matter. They just seem too fragile, I can't put them anywhere or they die. Indeed, if you don't move one whole platoon of those guys in mission 2 into the city, they begin the scenario in LOS to enemy AT assets and under artillery bombardment.

Also, how in the hell do you use a CAAT platoon? In Mission 4, you begin with one, and unless they begin in a position to ambush enem,y armor, they seem useless to me.

[Trident-za]

I'm also struggling to figure out how to use CAAT platoons, and vehicles in general. I'm not entirely convinced that I'm using my sniper/scout teams properly either. Never really had a problem with stock CMSF, but the Marine module is far tougher! Generally, the Marine campaign missions are far better designed and far more challenging. Great stuff!

[DaveDash]

I don't even bother with CAAT. The scale that CM:SF is on makes their usefulness limited. I guess you could use them as suicide scouts, but I prefer not to. I have tried employing them in each and every way and they just die far too easily to get any use from them.

Regarding this mission, I didn't find it was too bad when I played it the first time, but I did eventually run out of time and had to throw caution in the wind at the end. 90% of my casualties were in the last 10 minutes or so. If I had an extra 10 minutes I would have been fine. After dismounting IMMEDIATELY and clearing the start town, I sat all my vehicles on the edge of town and hosed down all the buildings as the infantry assaulted through the tall grass.

Regarding marines vehicles: Overwatch & Area fire. Unless the ROE states otherwise, shoot the crap out of everything that could hide an enemy. It's the ONLY way you can assault without taking casualties. Never assume anything is safe, always clear ahead with infantry first.

Anyone seen Generation Kill? Makes me wonder just how accurate the modeling is vs vehicles in CM:SF for a bunch of guys in thin skinned HUMVEES to get through what they did suffering what, 1 WIA?

Seems quite often the USMC would send LAVS or IFVs in first. I'd NEVER do that in CM:SF. Ever.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Humvee gunners ducking the minute someone fires a weapon is completely wrong. The only time a gunner should ever duck is if the vehicle rolls; otherwise he puts the entire formation at risk by not covering his sector. I couldn't imagine driving with a gunner who ducks like that, especially when they have front plates like Post-Patch humvees do.

We didn't even have those plates for a few months, and in many cases, just guys standing out in the open on the back of open-topped humvees. You think they ducked?

I find that I don't want to use vehicles in-game. I get terrified of sending a Bradley into a town, and can't even consider the idea of rolling with humvees or trucks. It is indeed a sad thing.

[DaveDash]

Humvee gunners ducking the minute someone fires a weapon is completely wrong. The only time a gunner should ever duck is if the vehicle rolls; otherwise he puts the entire formation at risk by not covering his sector. I couldn't imagine driving with a gunner who ducks like that, especially when they have front plates like Post-Patch humvees do.

We didn't even have those plates for a few months, and in many cases, just guys standing out in the open on the back of open-topped humvees. You think they ducked?

I find that I don't want to use vehicles in-game. I get terrified of sending a Bradley into a town, and can't even consider the idea of rolling with humvees or trucks. It is indeed a sad thing.

Yep. Heck, I'm even scared to send MULTIPLE Abrams (covering each other) anywhere first. The Thunder Run etc would never happen in CM:SF, it would be more like the Slight Drizzle Run.

[BlackMoria]

In the town, fan your infantry out with two groupings. One grouping assaults forward while the other grouping provides fires support. You can have the AAV keep pace in the rear. If you are spread out enough, your infantry are going to sweep up the RPG groups as part of the sweep. If done right, the red forces open fire and then get hammered with suppressions that mitigate their effectiveness. I then move several AAVs up and hammer the buildings with the defenders with 40mm to really soften them up. Then assault in.

When I have done this, I can clear the town really easy with few infantry casualties and no vehicle casualties.

Getting to the objectives is harder due to open terrain and positioning of the enemy AT assets. It can be made alot easier by using Lima battery and the Air assets to hit the objective buildings (they will usually have troops in them) and level them (yeah, I am a SOB that way).

It is RPG/ATassets in the ditches or treelines which become a headache because your first indication of their presence is a shot at one of your vehicles. I usually will try to wriggle a vehicle to a hull down and entice a shot and then kill the shooter with area/direct fire. I've gotten good at this and usually will not lose a vehicle.

Use arty/mortar smoke to cover short rushes to better positions. I can usually get my vehicles forward where they are more useful using this method.

Just a few things that I do which help me.

[Apocal]

Anyone seen Generation Kill? Makes me wonder just how accurate the modeling is vs vehicles in CM:SF for a bunch of guys in thin skinned HUMVEES to get through what they did suffering what, 1 WIA?

I don't think it's a problem with vehicle modelling per se. I think it's because suppression and morale effects are deliberately toned down to make for more decisive fights. So unless you're actually killing a helluva of people, you are being sold short on the moral effects of M2s and MKs.

Seems quite often the USMC would send LAVS or IFVs in first. I'd NEVER do that in CM:SF. Ever.

There are a few times I've done it in CMSF and gotten away with it. Sometimes you can roll them through your own artillery barrage.

[DaveDash]

There are a few times I've done it in CMSF and gotten away with it. Sometimes you can roll them through your own artillery barrage.

I never thought of this. Very good.

[JonS]

The Thunder Run etc would never happen in CM:SF, it would be more like the Slight Drizzle Run.

Sure it could, it's merely a matter of scenario design. All you need to do is create a map approx 20kms long that features a main highway with sproadic buildings and vegetation along either side, but geenrally set back from the road 50-100m, sprinkle poor quality, poor motivation Syrian troops with poor equipment extremely thinly along it's length, then roll a US heavy battalion along the highway, having given yourself 5 hours in which to do it.

Tell us how you do.

My guess would be that your results would certainly be comparable, if not exactly the same, as the Thunder Runs.

The basic 'problem' is that CMSF - and certainly any scenario worth playing - is predicated on the assumption that both sides have decided to stand and fight. That assumption is almost wholly invalid in the case of the Thunder Runs.

[DaveDash]

Sure it could, it's merely a matter of scenario design. All you need to do is create a map approx 20kms long that features a main highway with sproadic buildings and vegetation along either side, but geenrally set back from the road 50-100m, sprinkle poor quality, poor motivation Syrian troops with poor equipment extremely thinly along it's length, then roll a US heavy battalion along the highway, having given yourself 5 hours in which to do it.

Tell us how you do.

My guess would be that your results would certainly be comparable, if not exactly the same, as the Thunder Runs.

The basic 'problem' is that CMSF - and certainly any scenario worth playing - is predicated on the assumption that both sides have decided to stand and fight. That assumption is almost wholly invalid in the case of the Thunder Runs.

Actually no it wouldnt. Your TC's would all be dead in the first 15 minutes from being unbottoned, and then your tanks wouldn't be able to spot 90% of the threats to engage them.

[JonS]

Only if you drive with them unbuttoned

[Dietrich]

Have the advances in tank optics (CITV, FLIR, state-of-the-art periscopes, etc.) really obviated the principle which was true in WW2, at least, that a canny TC will keep his head out the hatch as much of the time as possible so as to have optimal situational awareness? At minimum range a 7.62mm round could nail a TC in the head or a grenade could get lobbed into the open hatch, and at usual tank-versus-tank range it would be better to be buttoned up and use the appropriate optics, but at ranges between, say, 50 to 100 meters, would it be better for the TC to be buttoned up?

[BlackMoria]

I believe the standard practice is commander 'eyes out' when not in contact with the enemy. Which is why in the many, many vids of tanks on the move, you notice the commander's head is out of the hatch. Despite advances in optics and sensors, the field of view is smaller than what the mark 1 eyeball can see and situational awareness is paramount.

Once in contact with the enemy, protection of the commander trumps the benefit of having him 'eyes out'.

So, if the enemy is at 50-100 metres, the commander WILL be buttoned up unless he is manning a pintel weapon and taking it to the bad guys.

[Pandur]

bout the CAAT platoon, or the humvees. i find them extraordinary usefull

for 3 good reasons;

1 cheap/expandable; good to trade for information

2 highly mobile and agile, and over road verry fast

3 they are a pain in the ass to the opponent, more to a human then the AI but however. they are worthless, can pack a lot of firepower(TOW, if it hits) and can pop up everywhere and hid in any ditch or behind a hut quiet good. means the enemy gets presented a worthless unit wich can make the enemy vehicles quiet messed up and he needs to devote some thing to it becouse he just cant ignore it. i think you get what i mean.

so, the use however is as you all say quiet tricky. the TOW variants like DISTANCE more then anything else. they spot fairly well over distance i found.

the 40mm variant is just perfect, its the vehicle wich is somewhere in the wait ready to areafire whatever after a short dash. preferably at least 200+ meters away. works perfect.

the 12.7mm variant, well i use em like the 40mm if there no better use OR the better use it to collect information with these. "can i pass this hamlet/compound?" well Pvt Humvee will try it out first.

simply drive by whatever or to whereever, buttoned up!!! and hope they spray em with rifle fire and put it in reverse. works well with no RPG around and the guys get out unharmed quiet often.

the important thing is keep em "buttoned up" on the close distance, if you need to draw fire show em the gunner close up, but be prepared to loos him. now the humvee will spot on close distances quiet well buttoned and as soons as they see something they pop out and shoot usualy so they are the ones wich get in the fire first and have a advantage that way, also mostly there is inf around wich handles the rest. if the enemy still gets in more then a few shots on the gunner its the wrong area for the humvee in the long run, get something armored.

dont get me wrong i dont say all humvees in irak should go buttoned now, i just say this is how i do it in the game and it works well enough. so they are quiet far from useless, however you cant make em do things they cant do in the game