c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Gents, I'm linking to a thread over here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1124509#post1124509 which discusses this. Basically, a javelin will sometimes miscue/misfire and impact at 43 meters. (It may be slightly more or less. The distance is dependent on the slope of the terrain in front of the launching unit.) I have had this happen to me 3 times. Here's a nice slide show... Hey, bad guys in that house are hosing our buddies! Let's show 'em we care... What about those guys in front of us? Don't worry, they'll be fine... On the way!! My bad! I'll get the next one right! Forensic analysis... All kidding aside, I have seen this three times. I have pictures, I have a savegame of the orders phase, I have a savegame of the replay phase. (For the above pictures.) All this was in v1.11. The other 2 times was in a USMC fight as well. However, that may've been in v1.10. They were targeting enemy in a building. I do not know if they were known enemy, suspected enemy, or just area fire at a building. Points of commonality for all three: Impact at, or extraordinarily close to, 43 meters. USMC Javelin teams for all three cases. Firing at enemy in buildings who may've been unknown to the launch team. If this is supposed to simulate some sort of failure mode of the Javelin, that would be nice to know. If it is unintentional, well, then there's a good bit of evidence here to troubleshoot it. If there's anyone who wants the savegames, post here, and I'll go ahead and upload them to a file sharing site. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Not that I want to suggest that this isn't a problem but isn't firing ATGM's over your own men discouraged in the real world for exactly that reason? I might be wrong but AFAIK, movement and fire is normally organised to avoid firing over peoples heads with heavy weapons. (Tanks especially because the falling sabot can injure your own men) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 hcrof, You are correct! That is a lesson my little men often shout back at me; "Stop shooting over our heads!" I will sometimes ignore their feeble little pleas. Sure, when they're hiding near some trees and my tank fires HE ahead of them, sometimes the shell explodes against the trees. That should motivate the rest of my men not to stop and try to hide from the enemy! Forward! Always forward! Besides, the next couple of HE shells usually clear the obstructing trees. I will often wonder why those puny men insist on picking the wrong spot to stop. They reap their reward. That forces me to create more men. The burdens of command.... Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I saw a video on youtube or liveleak that shows one of our boys shooting a javelin and it clears his buddy by no more then 3 or 4 feet. Yikes! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chainsaw Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I think, what we are seeing here is two things. 1. looking at videos and ingame shows that the missile have a tendency to drop a few meters before the "traveling" engine kicks in after the thrust engine kicks it out of the launcher tube. 2. as its against buildings, the direct-attack mode is used, instead of the top attack mode, wich makes the missile go lower then it does against tanks (trying to fly straight path) so Me thinks that what you see here is a combination of 1 and 2, and plain ground ahead the missile makes it hit the ground instead while waiting for the engine to kick in. that would match 2 criterias you both have: 1. 43meters out 2. against buildings and infantry. non report of it happening against tanks. (yet) (direct-attack mode, not top-attack mode) I had this problem a few times before, but then it has been about same conditions as you guys are showing of now. But how to solve it? dunno... /Thomas 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Chainsaw, Thanks. I've got the replay and the missile definitely gains altitude above the target line before dropping down. That does not mean that your observation is wrong; you may very well be right on, however, my team fired a second missile which worked. So, any drop below the target line error is not consistent. I concur that in that I have not seen it in top attack mode. Anyone else? Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 c3k, could you email the files to me, or otherwise make them available? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Gents, Here is more information. (Flamingknives, I've posted links to the two files in question at the bottom of this posting. As well, I've posted links to a previous iteration of this issue in the body, below.) This is from October 3rd, 2008, in this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84056 Gents, In one of the included scenarios, "USMC: Blues for Allah", my dismounted Javelin team has suffered several misses. I have two savegames from similar points in the game showing this. I do not have one from an earlier case in the same scenario. In one instance the team's Javelin nailed one of their own side's units. Oooops. I am using this scenario as a learning aid, so I went to a previous save and changed history. I had a save, so I cancelled that target order, waited a minute, then targeted a DIFFERENT target. Guess what? The javelin hit the same spot! The reason I'm posting this is that it may shed light on the Javelin miscues. I'm not saying the game is broken, or even that this is a bug. However, the displayed behavior does raise a question or two. In both cases the Javelin impacted exactly 40 meters away from the firing team. The targets were different, althought along similar sightlines. The LOS/LOF did NOT intersect the ground. (I find that that is the most common reason for short impacts: the desired LOF cuts through terrain. That was not the case in either shot.) Anyway, here are the links: http://www.mediafire.com/file/irwyxz2tln2/USMC Blues For Allah jav misfire.bts The other one: http://www.mediafire.com/file/ymczmmnhda0/USMC Blues For Allah 012B jave malf again.bts Again, although the team positioning is the same, note the machinegun team, note the targeted building, and note the time remaining. These are NOT the same turn. Is there something errant here? Or, is this just a spot from which every Javelin ever fired will impact 40 meters away? I probably have more savegames available for the immediately preceding action/command phases. Thanks, Ken Note the two files embedded: they should still be available. They were v1.10. Maybe they can be loaded/run in v1.11. Maybe a BF.C/Beta Tester member has v1.10 available to run error checks. If so, here they again: http://www.mediafire.com/file/irwyxz2tln2/USMC Blues For Allah jav misfire.bts http://www.mediafire.com/file/ymczmmnhda0/USMC Blues For Allah 012B jave malf again.bts As to the latest one, which I've posted pictures of upstream, I've just uploaded them. They are available at mediafire.com. They are each about 30 mb. One is the replay; it is titled "Bug - Javeline Misfire". The other is the immediately previous command phase; it is titled "Bug - Javelin Misfire, Orders Phase". Here are the links: http://www.mediafire.com/file/z2qzmyimydm/Bug - Javelin Misfire.bts http://www.mediafire.com/file/zeczgmcn00d/Bug - Javelin Misfire, Orders Phase.bts Both of the above are from the USMC campaign, "Semper Fi, Syria!", the second battle; v1.11. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 OK, got the Orders phase but I'm having a bit of trouble with the other. I'll have another go once I've switched OS. [Edit] OK, Tried that and I just get a message about the data not being available on the Servers. Ideas?[/Edit] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hmmm, just checked Mediafire and both sets of files have the same sharing options. Here they are again: http://www.mediafire.com/?zeczgmcn00d http://www.mediafire.com/?z2qzmyimydm (I notice that the above links are different from the ones upstream; neither have the "/Bug" added on. That seems to be an artifact of trying to link to the object AND have its title. The proper file names were "Bug - Javelin..." The mediafire link with title seems to've appended the "Bug" part as part of the file. Sorry; I didn't proof it.) Ken P.S. Looking at the links for the v1.10 errors, the same problem seems to've occurred. The filename got melded into the link, making the link invalid. Here are the correct links; http://www.mediafire.com/?irwyxz2tln2 http://www.mediafire.com/?ymczmmnhda0 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 How often does this occur to people? I have had it happen but for me it is so rare (1-5%) I assumed it was WAD. Admittedly, I tend to place my Jav teams on elevations if possible so I might not have seen it as much as others. The most curious thing is the consistency of the 43m. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Still can't get at the Javelin Misfire.bts 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 flamingknives, We may've just cross posted. Look upstream a couple of posts - just after your previous. Let me know if you're using the updated links. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Elmar Bijlsma, It is rare for me. I initially ignored it, except that in v1.10 it happened 3 times in the same scenario. Then, weeks later, someone posted about it, and it was VERY similar to my examples. That got me sensitized to it. Like you said, it is very rare, but it is too consistent in the way it is wrong for it to seem correct. That said, I am open to the fact that this may be some purposeful simulation of a known Javelin error. Or it's a game bug. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Yep, using the updated link, I just can't get at the Javelin Misfire.bts 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 ...but it is too consistent in the way it is wrong for it to seem correct. Hehe, here's me thinking it's too consistent to be unintentional. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Flamingknives: I'll upload another copy. It (mediafire) shows me my file, but when I tried to download it, it said that there was no server available to host it or something. Right now I have another window open and I'm in the midst of the upload. It's 31.98mb; I'll post a new link when it's up. Elmar Bijlsma: yeah, the consistency is odd. If, say, a truck in the game would occasionally veer hard right, I could accept one of two explanations. Either it's a bug, or BF.C has simulated the known, but rare, condition where the Oshkosh manufactured differential siezes up due to the wrong weight of oil and that always results in a hard right turn. In the same vein, if Javelins have a failure mode which is being simulated, just let us know. Ahhh, the upload is ready. I copied and renamed the file "Bug - Javelin 2.bts" and the mediafile upload applet informed me, after 15 minutes of upload, that the file is already in my account. So much for renaming it. However, it gave me a different link for sharing. Here it is: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=96e7cad887274d5dab1eab3e9fa335caa50a47fa2b8fc191 Let me know if that works. Have you tried the ones from v1.10? Just the download would be helpful, even if it may not work under v1.11. (edited to add: the above link goes directly to my mediafire CM folder. It has 5 files in it. The "Bug - Javelin Misfire.bts" file is the one containing the replay.) Thanks, Ken This link is STILL being shown... http://www.mediafire.com/?z2qzmyimydm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 c3k, can you zip it and email? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 c3k, If im correct thats the second mission of the Marines campaign right? I think this actually happened to me at exactly the same spot I have had this a few times but only after 1.11. Normally I fire Javs from higher places, I never had this problem when firing from elevations / buildings, but that seems logical. I thought these things were just misfires, however worth reloading 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 flamingknives; zip and email not possible. At almost 32meg, it's too big. If the file is still unaccessible on mediafire, I'm open to uploading to another hosting site. Any suggestions? Lethaface; upstream I have a quote and a link with savegames to this same thing in v1.10 - twice. Others have posted about this (JP76er?) in the thread I linked which directs you to the CMSF Tech Support forum. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well I have tested this and I notice it ALOT on the third training mission where you assault the town. I fired the javelin from my HQ unit at the FIRST FLOOR of a building 200 meters away and the missle hit 43 meters in front of the team.....3 TIMES IN A ROW. The missle seems to take a nosedive when not doing a popup tank attack but a direct building attack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Gents, I've just checked and the mediafire links are working. Let me know if you cannot get the file. If that's the case (unable to download), let me know another hosting site. Thanks for the interest/support. Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Forty-nine times out of fifty, my pixelsoldat is on a crest or on an upper floor of a building and is targeting an MBT/APC when he launches the Javelin. (In light of the 'one shot, one kill' deadliness of the Javelin, to me it seems gamey to use it on anything less than an MBT, unless my pixelsoldaten have no other real anti-armor assets at their disposal.) In playing "Battle for Objective Pooh" the other day, I had a Javelin team use both its missiles on a roof where an ATGM had been spotted. Both missiles arced through the air and hit the roof at approximately 60 degrees. But how often have you seen a Javelin just sail over a targeted MBT/APC as if it's a cruise missile, rather than zooming overhead and then nosediving into the target as intended? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taccovert4 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 As a question, can the javelin be made to do the popup attack without it targetting a tank. You wouldn't have this problem with 43m impacts, and against light buildings a roofburst would be far more devestating than a wallburst. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Yes but if the building is 6 stories high and you want to attack the 1st or 2nd level popup wont work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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