Fortified Positions - useful ideas

[Cipher]

As far as fortified positions go, of course you have the bunkers included with the game, but I was interested in what might be possible using the other tools that come with the editor to create fortified position.

[Cipher]

This position is based around a typical house, but uses balconies to protect the infantry that are positioned in trenches in front of the house.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zgx2zmy35mb&thumb=5

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=inubhmmujjm&thumb=5

The sides of the house can be utilized the same way and if buffed up with some low walls, they provide excellent cover for AT/ATGM/Sniper assets.

------------

After doing some testing on this layout, the troops here were able to take alot of arty pounding, but with some mixed results. For example, if they break and attempt to retreat, they get destroyed.

I was curious about what others may have come up with in this area.

[Cipher]

Although in reality this tactic proved less than effective against dominant airpower, a shoot-n-scoot tactic may make this a viable defense, or simply a use for static T-55s.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=dg0dj3wmbmz&thumb=6

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=obi1w1zuheg&thumb=5

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3mlgqznummt&thumb=5

[RadioactiveMan]

Remind me not to play any assault missions designed by Cipher...

I like both of those ideas. Another idea, related to your tank idea, would be to put a trench in a depression. Something like this:

22 22 22 22 22

20 20 20 20 20 <- Trench on the 20's

22 21 20 21 22

Should be possible to build a berm around your trench, with "firing gaps" similar to what you have shown for the tank. Including the trench gives the infantry better cover than the depression alone, and encourages them to stay put, and to move along the trench without exposing themselves too much.

Another unrelated idea: Read an excellent book about fighting in Fallujah called House to House that was recommended by someone on these forums. In that book the author talks alot about how the city defenders had modified the houses and spaces between them to limit entry points and movement for the Americans. You can simulate this in CMSF by limiting the doors and windows you have in buildings, and by using high walls to connect the buildings.

[RadioactiveMan]

Well I went and made examples of the things I was talking about. Here is my trench, with two machine guns deployed in seperate firing slots. They have really good fields of fire with decent protection for the crew. The rifle squad is down in the trench, they are safe from direct fire- But not grenades!

The HQ squad is positioned approximately "hull down". When I ran a play test they always got chewed up, but you can see how troops could move along the trench, then pop up where ever. This would be great for RPGs or Javelins

http://i41.tinypic.com/16knr6q.jpg

[RadioactiveMan]

And here is a quick example of a fortified courtyard with limited access and good ambush potential:

http://i44.tinypic.com/256sih0.jpg

There is a couple things to see in this picture. First off, the yellow dots are the only doorways present. Looking at the doorways and the walls you can see how limited an attacker's movement could be made. In blue I have drawn in a theoretical attack route for the marines, assuming they were forced to approach from that direction.

Upon moving through building A the marines enter a kill zone, and will take fire from B and C. In order to enter building C they must move through D and around to the back. But to do so will expose them to troops in E (and potentially D). Meanwhile G and F provide overwatch. Note that building E stradles the wall, potentially preventing easy flanking or breaching from that side. Also note that F can only be approached by a very roundabout way.

This is just one example of how a fortified position could be constructed- there are lots of other possibilities. This type of thing presents a really thorny problem for the marine player if they don't have sufficient heavy weapons to take down walls and/or knock down the buildings.

I ran a few play tests, and found I had a hard time defeating my own design. The overwatch machine guns come into play immediately, and were surprisingly hard to take down. Upon entering the courtyard my marines had a hard time getting eyes-on-target before they took rifle, rpg and grenade attacks at close range. Ouch. Lastly, I tried a breach and my boys accidently breached the wall segment and not the 2 story building as intended. There is a lesson there somewhere...

http://i42.tinypic.com/28s7nr6.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/4hqc0i.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/xauiyf.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/x5w369.jpg

After several runs, I was still having trouble clearing this little compound. I decided to make a small adjustment to the Marine roster...:cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/6jq88y.jpg

[bassplayer192837]

And here is a quick example of a fortified courtyard with limited access and good ambush potential:

http://i44.tinypic.com/256sih0.jpg

There is a couple things to see in this picture. First off, the yellow dots are the only doorways present. Looking at the doorways and the walls you can see how limited an attacker's movement could be made. In blue I have drawn in a theoretical attack route for the marines, assuming they were forced to approach from that direction.

Upon moving through building A the marines enter a kill zone, and will take fire from B and C. In order to enter building C they must move through D and around to the back. But to do so will expose them to troops in E (and potentially D). Meanwhile G and F provide overwatch. Note that building E stradles the wall, potentially preventing easy flanking or breaching from that side. Also note that F can only be approached by a very roundabout way.

This is just one example of how a fortified position could be constructed- there are lots of other possibilities. This type of thing presents a really thorny problem for the marine player if they don't have sufficient heavy weapons to take down walls and/or knock down the buildings.

I ran a few play tests, and found I had a hard time defeating my own design. The overwatch machine guns come into play immediately, and were surprisingly hard to take down. Upon entering the courtyard my marines had a hard time getting eyes-on-target before they took rifle, rpg and grenade attacks at close range. Ouch. Lastly, I tried a breach and my boys accidently breached the wall segment and not the 2 story building as intended. There is a lesson there somewhere...

http://i42.tinypic.com/28s7nr6.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/4hqc0i.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/xauiyf.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/x5w369.jpg

After several runs, I was still having trouble clearing this little compound. I decided to make a small adjustment to the Marine roster...:cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/6jq88y.jpg

I agree with you that this is a good fortification but if your playing an experienced player who knows what they are doing can easliy outflank you or call an artillary strike. Also your men have a limited way of escape if you were to ever be overwelmed

so although this might provide some good cover for a while once they opponent finds out you hiding in there your going to be defeated

[RadioactiveMan]

Ah well, I've never played this game head to head. I am strictly a turn-based solo player. Of course a game against another player would play drastically different.

I was mostly thinking about how to make something that would be devious to run up against as Blue vs the AI. The intent was to depict a fairly fanatical scenario, where the enemy wants to inflict maximum casualties in an urban area without much thought for escape.

If you wanted to force a fight like this in a head to head game you could always put an objective inside the compound, and maybe some restriction on destroying the buildings.

[jenrick]

Cipher, I likey. Gonna have to play with that this weekend.

Nicely put together RadioactiveMan, without having enough HE or other assest to force a breach, that's not gonna be fun.

As noted simply putting a terrain objective in the middle, and not giving blue force any CAS or artillery and the fight is on. Blue force might be able to force an entry through the back of building G, but that still leaves them open to fire form building G and E while moving to do so.

Interesting positions and tactical questions presented gentleman. Good work.

-Jenrick

[snake_eye]

I have incorporated some tanks pits position in my new landscape "A Counter Attack at El Derjine" to be uploaded in less than 2 weeks depending on the final testing.

The result has been so good in some position that, I had to remove an M1 for a Brad and finally l had to left the tank pit empty. In another case, on a hill having 2 tank pits manned by bradleys, overwatching a penetration axis, these were wiped out in less than 10 seconds by T-72's more than 800 meters away. I can swear, that they were really well protected. They were destroyed about the same way in all reloads.

Since the testing is done in elite R.T (closer to what could be done in real action), it is not too easy to assume with a perfect accuracy, the kills numbers made by the protected armor.

But a sure thing is, that in some instance they created havoc in the enemy formation and that on some others they get shot up right away (same A.I, same time elapsed and same tank pit position !). The A.I doesn't do the same all the time.

A last thing, you must put a 1 meter elevation, in front of the track pit to have a field of fire with partial hull down.

My height setting is generally the following:

If the field, where it has to be set ,is let say at a 0 elevation. I use a U pattern. The pit itself should be 2 squares long and 1 square large. The open top of the U is turned toward the enemy with a +2 on the three U sides and a +1 in the front opening. That way the track is able to have good field of fire.

The M1 is lower than the Brad. Depending on the ground, slight correction have to be made. The diagonal square facing on the map is less easy to make than a straight square facing.

Cheer

[flamingknives]

I've been mucking about with the editor and fortifications, and have noted the following:

1) A bunker over a trench and oriented in the same direction as the trench will drop into it, giving a covered access and a lower profile

2) a tile or set thereof set to 2-3m below the surrounding terrain will take a house, and a trench on a tile 1m lower provides access. This makes a nice covered fall-back position. It may help to add a wall around the top just to make sure no-one can get a sneaky shot in on the house. A similar approach with a 2 story building would make a bunker with a protected cellar.

[birdstrike]

This is some great stuff. Thanks all for working this out.

[Pete Wenman]

You can also place a building over a bunker. Needs to be done in the editor obviously, and depending on the way it is placed either be fully inside or just poking out. For the latter if a 2 floor building is used a porch can then be placed over it, making it harder to see.

Do remember to change the appropriate wall to the rubble/destroyed wall to allow effective LOS/LOF.

[Cipher]

After several runs, I was still having trouble clearing this little compound. I decided to make a small adjustment to the Marine roster...:cool:

http://i39.tinypic.com/6jq88y.jpg

[flamingknives]

I don't know how well it would work against a determined defence, but pausing outside and using an area target to ping grenades in before moving seems to reduce casualties, as long as the room is small enough.

[RadioactiveMan]

Grenades and smoke would help alot... one strategy is just to target-fire every building you come across to pin/kill anyone inside. Of course, this uses alot of ammo. Works best if you have infantry vehicles to do the cover firing, as they have almost limitless ammo.

My test compound setup was somewhat unrealistic. Starting the marines in a trench 30m from the compound was a bit harsh, and isn't actually very good scenario design. I think it would be more realistic, more flexible strategy-wise, and generally easier if the marines approached from further away, and had buildings of their own to occupy and to overwatch from.

There is probably a neat scenario in here somewhere, I'll have to think on it. I've never actually finished a scenario design, I always seem to get obsessed w/ the small stuff...

[bassplayer192837]

This position is based around a typical house, but uses balconies to protect the infantry that are positioned in trenches in front of the house.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=zgx2zmy35mb&thumb=5

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=inubhmmujjm&thumb=5

The sides of the house can be utilized the same way and if buffed up with some low walls, they provide excellent cover for AT/ATGM/Sniper assets.

------------

After doing some testing on this layout, the troops here were able to take alot of arty pounding, but with some mixed results. For example, if they break and attempt to retreat, they get destroyed.

I was curious about what others may have come up with in this area.

I tried something like this in a scenario where my forces had to take a small town and then attack the heavily fortified "base". The Fortification consisted of 6 tank bunker things trenchworks and 3 houses set up the same way as cipher had them. The reds had alot of AT weapons but my 4 Abrams still creamed them.

[Cipher]

Grenades and smoke would help alot... one strategy is just to target-fire every building you come across to pin/kill anyone inside. Of course, this uses alot of ammo. Works best if you have infantry vehicles to do the cover firing, as they have almost limitless ammo.

My test compound setup was somewhat unrealistic. Starting the marines in a trench 30m from the compound was a bit harsh, and isn't actually very good scenario design. I think it would be more realistic, more flexible strategy-wise, and generally easier if the marines approached from further away, and had buildings of their own to occupy and to overwatch from.

There is probably a neat scenario in here somewhere, I'll have to think on it. I've never actually finished a scenario design, I always seem to get obsessed w/ the small stuff...

Well that's kinda the point though, ya know? A brainstorming in this area could definitely produce some worthwhile scenario ideas. My first on will be coming up in about a week or so.

I think the main point to increasing the difficulty for the US forces is to come up with ways to limit their ability to concentrate firepower. Fire and maneuver is the doctrine after all.

[bassplayer192837]

Good ideas. I cant wait for that new scenario cipher!