v1.11 infantry behavior

[Dietrich]

(I intend this thread to be for discussion a la the Equipment Thread, but regarding infantry behavior, rather than hardware, especially in v1.11.)

Using Normal Dude's Firing Range 55, I ran several tests to observe changes in infantry behavior with v1.11.

US Army rifle squad:

Target area fire (on open ground)

600m: only MG-gunners and designated marksman fired

400m: all soldiers fired single shots (no rifle grenades fired)

Target Light area fire (on open ground)

600m: all soldiers fired, mixture of single shots and bursts

400m: all soldiers fired, with more bursts (except from designated marksman)

US Army sniper team (w/ M107 12.7mm) vs Uncon 'technical' (w/ PKM):

(without targeting order)

800m: only marksman fired

600m: only marksman fired

400m: only marksman fired

200m: only marksman fired, scoring a hit which made the technical burst into flames =)

US Army scout team (w/ M240B) vs Uncon 'technical' (w/ PKM):

(without targeting order)

600m: only MG fired

400m: only MG fired

200m: only MG fired

100m: only MG fired...at first. The MG-gunner emptied one belt at the technical, reloaded, and had just squeezed off his second burst with the fresh belt when three of the other men in the team (not including the MG-loader) all took aim and fired at the technical. This opening fire happened just before the technical itself opened fire on the scout team. I figure this simulates the M4-equipped men in the team (team leader, radioman, soldier) noticing that the guys in the bed of the technical were bringing the PKM to bear on them and the team leader thus saying: "They're getting a bead on us--open fire!"

Secondly, while playing theFightingSeabee's scenario "Afghani Stan", I had an experience which served as a test (possible spoiler): the taxi transporting Afghani Stan himself bogged down within a hundred meters of the map edge, in full view of the sniper squad (w/ two M110s) I had in overwatch. Figuring it would be inconvenient to send one of my SOF mini-platoons down the road to take out Afghani Stan, I ordered my sniper squad to target the unit in the taxi. The range was approximately 530m. Both marksmen kept up fairly steady aimed shots (taking out at least three of the guys in the taxi), while the other guys in the squad refrained from shooting.

[purpheart23]

Hey Dietrich, can you test out and post the Marine squads as well?

[PSY]

US Army rifle squad:

Target area fire (on open ground)

600m: only MG-gunners and designated marksman fired

400m: all soldiers fired single shots (no rifle grenades fired)

Target Light area fire (on open ground)

600m: all soldiers fired, mixture of single shots and bursts

400m: all soldiers fired, with more bursts (except from designated marksman)

Dietrich, did you copy this down backwards, or did they really fire more shots with the Target Light then with the regular Target command -- because that would be bad?

[Dietrich]

@purpheart23: I can, and I will. =) I don't foresee any noteworthy differences, though. The results so far suggest that infantry behavior, especially for support teams (sniper, MMG, etc.), is coded so that without a specific Target order the key weapon(s) in a team will fire first and foremost, with the M4- or M16-equipped troops acting as spotters and in local defense. (In the test with the Army scout squad, the M4-armed guys evidently opened fire in response to the apparent threat of the 'technical' actually opening fire on them.) The next series of tests will be with the same setup and same units (for both sides) but with specific targeting orders to look for any differences in interpretation of Target vis-a-vis Target Light orders between units, seeking answers to questions such as: With a Target order, will all the men in a support team open fire, assuming the target is within effective range of their weapons? How will said team's fire output differ with a Target Light order? How does range affect a given unit's interpretation of Target versus Target Light orders? That said, though, I'm interested, not so much in concrete data, but rather in getting a clear sense of how the TacAI of infantry units works. Before I ran these tests, I was hoping to see that, for example, in a sniper team only the marksman would open fire (without orders otherwise), with the other men keeping a low profile, and that is what I saw in the tests.

@PSY: ...By Jove, you're right. I'm sheepish I didn't catch that in the several times I proofread the post before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. Thank you for pointing that out. =)

Edit to above data:

US Army rifle squad:

Target Light area fire (on open ground)

600m: only MG-gunners and designated marksman fired

400m: all soldiers fired single shots (no rifle grenades fired)

Target area fire (on open ground)

600m: all soldiers fired, mixture of single shots and bursts

400m: all soldiers fired, with more bursts (except from designated marksman)

Too bad on this forum you can only edit a post within 30 minutes of posting it. *sigh*

[purpheart23]

Thanks boss, I would but I have very little time to fool around today and tomorrow as I will probably be inebriated here within the next couple of hours and I'll be shaking it off tomorrow and maybe the day after. Thanks in advance again.

p.s. I only ask to see if the Marines take advantage of the slightly better accuracy at range with the good ol tried and true M-16A4.

[cmfan]

Great work Dietrich! I like your results so far - particularly for the snipers.

If you have the time you should try out a MOUT infantry HQ with all the designated marksmen/platoon snipers in it. I've found that they are much more effective in 1.11

[Dietrich]

@purpheart23: The M16A4's effective range is greater than that of the M4[A1], though my observation has been that (in CMSF) Marine riflemen don't necessarily open fire at greater ranges than their Army counterparts. But I'll gladly run the corresponding tests anyway. =)

@cmfan: Thanks for the encouragement. I'll include Army MOUT platoon/company HQ units in my tests.

As I mentioned in the "spotting changes in v1.11" thread, I'm also going to run tests with various units (infantry and vehicles) to get a sense of which types of units spot better (or worse) than others. In particular I'm interested to see if, say, a recon HMMWV or recon Stryker spots any better than a binocular-equipped scout team or sniper team. (As was pointed out in the "Splitting Squads - when is it worth it?" thread, the spotting ability of split squads is noticeably poorer than that of intact squads; but does that per se apply to sniper teams as compared with sniper squads?)

[PSY]

As I mentioned in the "spotting changes in v1.11" thread, I'm also going to run tests with various units (infantry and vehicles) to get a sense of which types of units spot better (or worse) than others. In particular I'm interested to see if, say, a recon HMMWV or recon Stryker spots any better than a binocular-equipped scout team or sniper team. (As was pointed out in the "Splitting Squads - when is it worth it?" thread, the spotting ability of split squads is noticeably poorer than that of intact squads; but does that per se apply to sniper teams as compared with sniper squads?)

I'm curious as to how much of a difference binoculars make. Sounds like from the spotting changes thread neither the binocular equipped nor the non-binocular equipped teams could spot a nearby Syrian team. Seems like binoculars should not only increase ability to see other units, but could potentially make a big difference in determining what kind of units they were.

[repsol]

hello !

I had one thought..If you want to target a specific enemy unit with the sniper units and not use the target command...Will it work to put a narrow target arc around that unit to get the sniperunit to target that enemy and only the guy with the sniperrifle to fire ?? That way you could choose your targets and still have the sniperunit work th way it should..??

[Dietrich]

I'm curious as to how much of a difference binoculars make. Sounds like from the spotting changes thread neither the binocular equipped nor the non-binocular equipped teams could spot a nearby Syrian team. Seems like binoculars should not only increase ability to see other units, but could potentially make a big difference in determining what kind of units they were.

In reality, binoculars would make a difference in determining a unit's type. In CMSF, each enemy unit's type is visible to the player once as soon as that unit is spotted. This is one of the few things which I don't like about CMSF and which don't make sense to me. It's one thing to be able to tell if a tank is a T-55MV or a T-72 TURMS (depending on the distance to said tank and what optics are available to the spotting unit), but would even a binocular-equipped sniper team necessarily know what sort of unit it had spotted, unless there was some sort of telltale equipment like an ATGM or recoilless rifle?

hello !

I had one thought..If you want to target a specific enemy unit with the sniper units and not use the target command...Will it work to put a narrow target arc around that unit to get the sniperunit to target that enemy and only the guy with the sniperrifle to fire ?? That way you could choose your targets and still have the sniperunit work th way it should..??

Using a narrow target arc instead of a target command is something I haven't tried. I'll gladly give that a go to see how it works.

Recent testing on Firing Range 55 with a SBCT (non-MOUT) rifle squad facing a Syrian Reserve Company HQ team and a Forward Observer team in open ground shows that out to 800m or so, the squad's designated marksman (DM) behaves as he theoretically should: he fires single shots, taking several seconds to aim before each one, and he is definitely more accurate than the other M4-armed riflemen, who tend to fire short bursts, and more frequently. Fairly often, too, the DM fires whereas the rest of his squadmates refrain from shooting, depending on how far away the potential target is.

Speaking of which... I have read of USMC designated marksmen -- indeed, there is the USMC Designated Marksman Rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle) -- but in CMSF I've never seen any USMC pixeltruppen with the "marksman" symbol except in actual sniper teams. Why this omission, I wonder? Certainly in a squad of 13 men (9 of whom are armed with ACOG-equipped M16A4s) there's room for one to act as a designated marksman, right?

[taccovert4]

In real Life IIRC, USMC squads do not have a specific DM. At least currently, the training of Marines includes 500m target practice with both iron sights and the ACOG. Every Marine is expected to have some level of proficiency in shooting at these ranges, and so a Designated Marksman is not an integral part of the squad. There are higher levels of weapons proficiency, but nothing in the TO&E that had DMs in Rifle Squads.

LCpl. Daniel Hines USMC

[Dietrich]

No DM at the platoon level either? If no, at what level are DMs to be found? (Presuming that the Marines don't have a USMC Designated Marksman Rifle for nothing.)

Not to compare apples to oranges, but the three "marksman" (as designated by the sniper logo in the UI) in the SBCT MOUT platoon HQ come in rather handy. According to the UI, they're armed with scope-equipped M4s (though, since almost all such carbines -- like their full-length M16 cousins -- are fitted with optic sights, it's unclear to me what sort of scopes those are), rather than rifles more suited to actual sniping.

[taccovert4]

Some riflemen get advanced training, but to the best of my knowledge, there's no TO&E for DMs in the platoon. At the company level you might start seeing sniper teams. Part of it is that average Army marksmanship is out to 300m, with DMs being trained out to 600m. Average Marine marksmanship is out to 500m/yds (depending on which range you qualify at) regardless of weapon (16A2, 16A4(acog), or M4), so having riflemen trained for 600m shooting is really a bit overkill. Therefore, if you have an army rifle squad of 13 with 3 DMs, and a USMC rifle squad of 13 with no DMs, the USMC squad should still be providing *accurate* fire from 10 rifles at 500m, while the army squad would only be *accurately* firing with 3 rifles. Ergo, the USMC squad gets a 200% increase in rifle fire or a 100% increase in total firepower at ranges between 300 and 500m (I'm giving both squads 3 M249 SAWs, and counting each SAW at the firepower of 3 riflemen). Between 500 and 600m, the Army squad has a 30% increase in total *accurate* fire volume, but by that point you're reaching the realm of the MMG and HMG or mortars.

[Apocal]

It's even worse when you consider the Army has nine man squads, 2 teams with 1 SAW ea.

[taccovert4]

True. But the Army has far more vehicle-borne weapons systems, like the umpteen Stryker variants, Bradley, and Abrams, while the Marines make do with Amtracks and smaller, lighter LAVs, and a lot fewer tanks in proportion to size.

Different philosophies mean different TO&Es.

[hagebono]

Scout snipers are the DMs for the Marines. They'll be attached to squads, platoons as needed, though they generally (and prefer) to work on their own. The scout sniper commander (1st/2nd Lt) will give direction to his teams as needed.

I think in the early onset of the Iraq war, the sniper teams were not utilized correctly. They were being treated as glorified grunts instead of being released for snooping and pooping and causing hate and discontent.

[taccovert4]

but Scout Snipers are far more than just DMs. They're fully functional weapon systems in their own right. And while DMs are effective out to 600m maybe 800m, Scout Snipers don't start to lose effectiveness till 1000-1200m, maybe farther depending on the skill of the sniper.

For the best comparison, the average grunt with his 16A4 and ACOG is closest to the DM, being about halfway between the average Army grunt and the Army DM. And with larger squads of these guys, who needs a couple of semi-specialized shooters?

[Apocal]

Scout snipers are the DMs for the Marines. They'll be attached to squads, platoons as needed, though they generally (and prefer) to work on their own. The scout sniper commander (1st/2nd Lt) will give direction to his teams as needed.

Designated marksmen are members of their spquad/platoon first and foremost. They still move and fight as riflemen. Scout/snipers might ocassionally

I think in the early onset of the Iraq war, the sniper teams were not utilized correctly. They were being treated as glorified grunts instead of being released for snooping and pooping and causing hate and discontent.

Not much room for dismounted snooping and pooping when you're advancing as fast as we were in OIF 1.

[taccovert4]

true, but if you had launched them by Pave Low III or HALO jump into Iraq in the middle of the night just as the Hyperwar began they could have shut down highway junctions, provided real time intel, and generally kept all non-armored Iraqi convoys in a state of perpetual panic by calling in air strikes and sniping at any unprotected personell. A better use than treating them as infantry with bolt-action rifles.

[Apocal]

true, but if you had launched them by Pave Low III or HALO jump into Iraq in the middle of the night just as the Hyperwar began they could have shut down highway junctions, provided real time intel, and generally kept all non-armored Iraqi convoys in a state of perpetual panic by calling in air strikes and sniping at any unprotected personell.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most scout/snipers aren't even parachute-qualified, let alone HALO, and the Wing doesn't have PAVE LOWs? At any rate, there was some SOF doing that, at least in the Army's sector. The results were pretty mixed. In some cases they were crucial in gathering intelligence, in others they were outright counter-productive, giving intel that was demonstrated false as conventional units entered "friendly" towns and encountered prepared ambushes.

Not much (unclassified) has been written about it though, compared to the much more successful northern operations.

A better use than treating them as infantry with bolt-action rifles.

I generally wouldn't use a wrench to drive nails either.

[Dietrich]

So the short version is . . . no designated marksman at pretty much any level in the USMC TO&E (despite their having a USMC Designated Marksman Rifle), since regular M16A4-armed soldiers are trained to provide accurate fire out to at least 500m, beyond which range you might as well employ an actual sniper . . . right?

[taccovert4]

Exactly. Why reinvent the sharpshooter just to deal with threats in a 100m window?

[Dietrich]

*shrug* Sounds fine to me. I guess I was misled/puzzled by the existence (as per Wikipedia, at least) of the USMC Designated Marksman Rifle.

[taccovert4]

Who knows, some genius up in Washington (whether congressional or HQMC) may have decided that the Marines need to be more like the *gasp* Army.

[Dietrich]

But what about the USMC Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Squad_Advanced_Marksman_Rifle) I doubt the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab (http://www.mcwl.quantico.usmc.mil/) would develop this and other weapons (like, presumably, the USMC Designated Marksman Rifle) just for use at Quantico.