Victory conditions

[scottsmm]

If the Japs could succeed at a total suprise like in Pearl Harbour there would be a good chance of them succeeding in takeing beaches on the west coast. Fact is if they attacked I believe they would have advanced all the way to Chicago before we would push them back. Plus the Japs had good transports and Amphibious transports remember they were the first to create them. In the first year in the war Japan could win any battle after that they would be doomed for defeat. Even Isoroku Yamamoto knew this.

[SeaMonkey]

Now may be a good time to start the new SC Global thread?

But before that, perhaps it would be best to define a start date?

I have a few candidates to nominate. I'll start in chronological order.

1. Kwantung Army occupies Chinese state of Manchuria, September 1931.

2. Germany re-occupies the Rhineland, March 1936.

3. "China Incident", July 1937.

I'll state my leanings to #2.

Others to consider?

[scottsmm]

Germany annexing Austria

[xwormwood]

.Its because the Axis will have virtually no hope.

... of outproducing the Allies, yes. But they did of course have a chance for a different outcome of this war.

And that is why we play Games like SC.

[Blashy]

If the Japs could succeed at a total suprise like in Pearl Harbour there would be a good chance of them succeeding in takeing beaches on the west coast. Fact is if they attacked I believe they would have advanced all the way to Chicago before we would push them back. Plus the Japs had good transports and Amphibious transports remember they were the first to create them. In the first year in the war Japan could win any battle after that they would be doomed for defeat. Even Isoroku Yamamoto knew this.

You have to read about amphibious transports, they sucked, no way in hell they could have brought troops from Hawaii to USA in those OR mass them all from Japan to Hawaii. USA would have had days to see them coming.

DDay succeeded because of deception, if the Germans would have known exactly where it was to occur they could have stopped it, they had 300k troops in France while the Allies landed 100k by the end of the day.

The invasion of Hawaii was a remote possibility, the invasion of USA, a simple "what if" impossibility.

And they were not the first to create amphibious transports, that started as early as WW1 by many countries, USA was one of them.

[Blashy]

... of outproducing the Allies, yes. But they did of course have a chance for a different outcome of this war.

And that is why we play Games like SC.

I have a mod that gives USA proper production for ETO, the victory conditions for Germany are changed in a manner so Germany can still achieve victory. Makes the games much more fun IMO as it falls within reality and you pretty much have to fight until the end or close to it to know who wins, if both players play well.

[arado234]

Xwormwood the Axis did have a chance of a different outcome if Hitler wasnt Hitler and the Japs hadnt attacked America.Since Germany was being commanded by a madman and Japan did attack America,unless the Axis came up with enough super weapons(A.bomb,etc)I cant see there being anyother out come.

As far as SC goes this game in noway truley represents reality.Its impossible for any war game to do that(the board game squad leader came real close).It does have a good balance to give the Axis a chance to win but if you start adding things like historical Allied industrial might,Ultra,the A.bomb,etc.(the fact that before the game even starts the Allied player knows that America and Russia will be coming in on the Allied side which in reality nobody knew is a big plus which cant be changed)I think the Axis would lose everytime(unless Terif or jollyguy are the Axis).But the game is played for fun(as it should be)and by making it possible for the Axis to win(even take America)is fun.

[SeaMonkey]

:rolleyes:Rational thought effuses that SC is a game first and foremost, no need to reiterate a234's statement. Perhaps it is a simulation second, that is debatable, but assuredly it is nowhere close to reality, never will be, for simply one most prominent reason, hindsight.

Hindsight defined as either historical or repetition of the game mechanism.

So from there and there is no denying it, you'll always have a deviation from history and people will argue that it is not reality and we will be without reproach.

Bottom line, the game will always be a "what if", and in that embodiment there exists a chance that the Axis conglomeration could win, not the one that we know historically, but the one that SC presents.

The one conclusion that does exist is the one that happened, the why's and where for's will always be discussed, but in the context of reality, inconsequential.

Now our SC ending is another matter completely, so let us remember, in that setting, anything is possible, within the confines of physics....as we know them.

Even....."Sharks with Fricken laser beams on their Heads":eek:

[arado234]

Well put SeaMonkey.

[scottsmm]

Blashy of course the USA was one of them another less known one was Italy. On DDAy however the Germans did recieve warning from one of there spies however he was a double spy and informed them only 3 hours in advance. The reason for our success in DDAY was that most of the German 300K troops you speak of where only capable of a static defense and nothing more. On top of that Hitler wouldn't give Rommuel total control of the forces in France further limiting Germany's chances of success. On top of that there was Sabotage, and the allied soldiers bravery on the front. Combine all of this and you would realize the Germans didn't have much of a chance at success. For the Jap question the Japs were perfectly capable of launching any invasion because they would have had naval & air superiorty over an allied nation including your Canada.

[Blashy]

scottsmm, seriously go read on the technical aspects of transporting all those troops across all that sea, it was impossible. They would not have had air superiority for one thing as they would only have had 4 Carriers while USA had allot more air power available on the mainland, unlike Germany which had virtually zero air power vs. DDay.

AND they would not have had a steady supply like the allies had from the UK.

Just take the time to look at the logistics required for DDay now try and apply the same thing about 1000 times longer distance, without air superiority, with an enemy that could easily know where you would land, no sabotage, VERY well supplied US/Canadian troops (German supplies were crap by the time of DDay) and it goes on and on and on.

Logistics and manpower made it an impossibility.

I am all for "what if", as in realistic "what if" which best option for the Axis is hold on long enough with key areas to sue for peace on somewhat equal terms. That was their only shot when a giant like USA is doubling production of both of them put together, UK was producing almost equal to Germany and Russia was outproducing them as well.

[scottsmm]

Well Germany, Japan, & Italy decided to attack these nations so shame on them for taking more than what they could handle. I have looked at there transports, and I agree there no where as good as ours but the simple truth is if they attacked early on there wouldn't have been this great allied combined force to repel them immedately. Believe me if that was even remotley possible I would agree with you that they didn't have any chance at success. What I do think would have happenend is every abled bodied american & Canadian from my grandfather on would have picked up a gun and went west to kill the Japs, but that would take time. In other words I think the Japs where capable of getting troops on mainland North America, but from then on it would have been a disaster, and because of it would have ultimately speed up the decline of Japan, but probably let Germany & Italy survive a little longer. Since of course we wouldn't be producing arms and fighting troops for Europe but for our on land.