Darkmage Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Just wondering if anyone else has noticed a change in the vehicle pathfinding from 1.08 to 1.10? I was trying to play the Cabal's new mission, Siege of Latakia but am running into serious problems. Basically the the 1st 2 objectives are in large walled compounds, and instead of driving through the entrance (RPG ambush anyone?) I thought I'd use my engineers to blow a gap in the wall large enough and storm my AAVs through a different route. I've created gaps big enough (about twice the width of an AAV) however I can only get them through with great difficulty, lots of tiny waypoints up to and through the breach and sometimes this doesn't work (consequently trying to get 8 AAVs through 2 breached compounds is giving me a headache). If i park an AAV 1 side of the wall and give it a forward move order through the breach it turns, and takes the long way round and drives in the main entrance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roter Stern Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 The pathfinding has definitely been tweaked, and not for the best either. I believe Steve mentioned it's something they're looking at for the next patch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Are you using FAST? That is something that would definitely mess things up. Version 1.11 will improve how the TacAI handles the player's instructions to go at speeds inappropriate for the conditions. Right now you can test to see if this is the problem by using SLOW or MOVE. Let me know if that works. Also there was a problem with how the TacAI dealt with instructions to pass through "cliffs" that roads had slight overlap with. That's been fixed as well. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmage Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Are you using FAST? That is something that would definitely mess things up. Version 1.11 will improve how the TacAI handles the player's instructions to go at speeds inappropriate for the conditions. Right now you can test to see if this is the problem by using SLOW or MOVE. Let me know if that works. Also there was a problem with how the TacAI dealt with instructions to pass through "cliffs" that roads had slight overlap with. That's been fixed as well. Steve I was using 'QUICK'. I guess the behaviour I was seeing kind of makes sense as trying to charge through a wall you've just blown with rubble and not too much clearance either side isn't a v.smart move. I'll try again with 'move' and see what happens 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmage Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 just had a quick try still no luck! managed to get 1 through! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Vehicle pathfinding is much worse in V1.10, in my opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Darkmage, Hmmm... well, to be on the safe side it would be great if you could email me a save with the paths plotted but not executed yet. Just let me know which vehicle/s to look at. Send to steve@battlefront.com Cpl Steiner, Vehicle pathfinding is much worse in V1.10, in my opinion. The results have been more inconsistent than that, I think. But definitely there were some things that Charles has already straightened out that would definitely be causing some people more grief than others. That's because individual play style has a heavy influence on pathing (always has). Thanks, Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelmia Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Vehicles do need some hand holding, and they often ignore a straight line move order in favor of a triangle. IED taxis are terrible about that. Watching a suicide bomber swerve back and forth (maybe he's trying to dodge bullets?) down a boulevard is mildly entertaining, but looks silly. Nothing near as bad as it used to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERISS Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Yep I don't play CM 1.10 for this bug. I prefer the 1.08. I hope for a quick 1.11 with drivable vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmage Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Steve I have to say after re-loading the scenario to try recreate it my AAVs have been moving through the breach I've made fine, my marines must've known I was out bug hunting and decided to behave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Oh... that's interesting. Are you now using the slower Commands or the faster ones you were using before? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkmage Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Well the 1st time I tried using 'move' was having some trouble, but now it seems to work ok. I think it has something to do with how you line the vehicles up facing the breach and turning circles etc.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 SPOILER... In the 3rd mission of the campaign, I wanted my trucks to avoid the roads in case of mines. If I gave a move order nearer a road, however, the trucks would just veer off their ordered path and go for the road. Why can't they just do as they are told? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Darkmage, Well the 1st time I tried using 'move' was having some trouble, but now it seems to work ok. I think it has something to do with how you line the vehicles up facing the breach and turning circles etc.. Ah yes... turning radius might come into play here. That's the thing that Charles just tweaked for v1.11 as I understand it. Cpl Steiner, If I gave a move order nearer a road, however, the trucks would just veer off their ordered path and go for the road. Why can't they just do as they are told? This is one of the things that is so difficult for pathing AI. In one instance the player screams at it "GO EXACTLY WHERE I TOLD YOU TO GO!!!" and in another he screams "WHY AREN'T YOU SMART ENOUGH TO TAKE THE BEST PATH! WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO SPELL OUT EXACTLY WHERE TO GO WHEN IT IS SO OBVIOUS THE PATH YOU ARE TAKING IS STUPID?!?" To use your road example, in one case a player might say (as you did) "I purposefully did not plot on the road because I wanted you to stay between these two off-road points. I don't care how much slower it is to get from A to B because speed isn't what I'm concerned about". The other possibility is "I shouldn't have to tell you to use the road to get from A to B because it should be obvious that since you're a vehicle, and roads are optimized for vehicle use, that you should take it. I don't see why I need to put down extra waypoints to tell you something you should already know". BOTH of these points of view are equally correct, or equally wrong, depending on the player's intent and/or expectations. CM's pathing does a very good job of guessing which method you want to use, but sometimes it does get it wrong. It isn't avoidable. Generally speaking, though, shorter gaps between waypoints dramatically reduces the chance that the pathing will do something other than a straight line. So my suggestion is that when plotting near a road like that, put down a couple of waypoints parallel to the road and the pathing AI will more likely understand that you want to stay off the road. The reason? Because the shorter the distance the less likely that veering from a straight line will yield a better path, therefore it stays with straight paths as much as it is able to (i.e. blocking terrain still has to be moved around). That make sense? Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 That make sense? It does. I'll give it a go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelmia Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Yeah, but what about when I tell the vehicle to go straight on a straight road but they drive into the weeds anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Well, that is something I'd like to see a save of The only thing I can think of that might cause that is if a small patch of road was deemed impassible for some reason. The only thing that comes to mind is elevation. However, it would have to be bordering a Cliff in a very specific way. We found an issue with that and have fixed it for v1.11. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERISS Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 The only thing I can think of that might cause that is if a small patch of road was deemed impassible for some reason. The only thing that comes to mind is elevation. Steve If it were impassible, it had to be impassible for the patches prior 1.10. But before 1.10, the vehicles could stand on the roads: Then it shows these roads were not impassibles... Or, maybe you changed all the maps for the 1.10, where you put invisibles walls in the middle of the roads? (including the Ambush Tutorial one, the sole I tested). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 As far as I know the abutting a cliff problem was a bug resulting from further pathfinding refinements that were put into v1.10. So you are correct that it would make behavior on an older map different in v1.10 vs. v1.08. Remember, just because the pathfinding code thinks something is impassible doesn't mean it actually is. Pathfinding is a logic routine, not something that is data based. Therefore, a flaw in the logic can make it misinterpret data. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Okay, I'm going to chime in here as I don't want some of the things I'm seeing in the game since v1.10 to persist past v1.11. Vehicle pathfinding has definitely changed especially with respect to usage of roads. I have two missions in progress that, prior to v1.1, had vehicles moving rapidly along narrow roads through orchards or between two low walls that worked just fine. And they had Fast movement orders too. As long as I left a reasonable delay (around 10-15 seconds) between units moving along that one road, there were never any problems. After reading Steve's suggestion about reducing the speed I tried an experiment yesterday by giving a BRDM-2 ATGM vehicle a normal move order to move along the orchard road and it did it. However, even after a 30 second delay, no other unit was capable of repeating this move. Their first action would be to turn left off the road. Then I set the experiment up and repeated it, this time with a BMP-1 at the front, same conditions and the very first thing it did was turn left, drive off the road and generally wander around trying to find the road again. I definitely wasn't seeing this behaviour before v1.1. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Charles has already fixed some issues with speeds faster than conditions for v1.11. We'll beat the crap out of it to make sure the fixes don't have unintended consequences. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Here's an example from my morning session. This vehicle has been given a number of short MOVE commands along a narrow road through a wheatfield. It won't stay on the road But wait, there's something else happening here that's a bit weird. I noticed that this vehicle had backed up through a building and was able to move througth the building to the other side again 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 here's the same vehicle emerging from the building a few seconds later and finally it emerges. Fortunately I saved the game when I saw this and before I started snapping screenshots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 I was in a hurry when I posted that but let me just elaborate. The BRDM was given a series of short MOVE orders along the narrow road. Prior to v1.1, I could issue the same vehicle a single FAST order and it would tear up that road no problem without any diversions whatsoever. Now, even short MOVE orders are ignored and when it reaches it's next waypoint on the road, it goes off the road again. This is clearly demonstrated in the picture sequnce above. (But hey, it get's there in the end, it just takes 2-3 minutes longer than it used to) Perhaps this is exactly the kind of thing you've already fixed? However, I'm a little bit surprised that you're not interested in the driving through buildings issue though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Holy Crap! I've never seen anything like that. I mean... never. Going a bit into a building now and then, sure, but straight through? Please send me that save file if you have it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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