Any chance of Spotting Units?

[Taki]

Hello there.

I played the TF Thunder Campaign again and its awesome with 1.10. Totally Diffrent Gameexperience but a tad harder now.

What is anyoing me is the Airfield Mission. I played it a few Times with diffrent Patches and got a real good feeling where the Enemys are.

But how to spot them when they are hidden? How to clear houses?

Its always the Same Problem. I drive some MGS, Stryker and Inf around one building where the Enemy is suspected. Then i drive a stryker infront unload the Units and try to engage. Enemy always spot me first doing casualtiys. After my units react i lost alot.

Is there some way to spot Units? I tryed Target Arc and even Recon Units cant find hidden Enemys. Okay they are hidden but even Isolated Units hold their hidden Pos even when i totally overrun them. Feels unrealistic and always put me into bloody House/Hand to Hand fights.

Im voting for Diffrent Hidden Stats:

Full Hidden = Fully hidden but Unit dont see anything

Partcial hidden= Unit can spot, fire but also can be spotted by the Enemy

That would do the Trick. Or am i missing something?

[Fenix]

Actually there is a chance that you see a hidden unit. I don't know exactly what chance, but it exists. Using Target Arc and Hunt movement enhaces your chance of finding hidden enemy units. I guess it may be harder if they are hidden inside buildings. Anyway try to provide some heavy cover fire on the building just before your troops storm into it, so any enemy unit located inside appears as "Pinned".

Take a look at this thread, Chainsaw describes a quite useful assault tactic, i have used several times and it really works:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927

Oh, and be sure that sometimes you cannot avoid taking some casualties, and remember that static troops have got a better chance to see moving troops than viceversa.

[SgtMuhammed]

If you suspect that a building is an enemy position then prep it with fire or obscure it with smoke. It is very simple to keep people outside from seeing into a building while allowing you to see out. Simply turning out the lights will make glass one way (if it is darker inside then you cannot see inside) and some mesh curtains will allow you to see out while keeping others from looking in. You must assume that the building is occupied.

[ChrisND]

Those strykers have a ton of MG ammo. For that mission, I recommend plastering every building that could fire on maneuvering troops with MG fire until it is cleared or determined to be unoccupied.

[Taki]

Its not the "Plaster all Buildings with FIre and Storm them" what set me up (probably in RT Multiplayer will). Its more the Problem that i absolutly have no chance of spotting any units until they pop up an dbring their deadly Fire (mostly on close Range)

[ChrisND]

Its not the "Plaster all Buildings with FIre and Storm them" what set me up (probably in RT Multiplayer will). Its more the Problem that i absolutly have no chance of spotting any units until they pop up an dbring their deadly Fire (mostly on close Range)

Unfortunately people who are contemplating the possibility of eating a bullet tend not to wear bright orange and jump up and down on the rooftops singing Beatles songs at the tops of their voices . Keep a large overwatch element in position, and anyone dares open up on your maneuvering forces will get about 5 seconds to think about the meaning of life before being plastered in return fire.

[Paper Tiger]

I drive some MGS, Stryker and Inf around one building where the Enemy is suspected.

Then i drive a stryker infront unload the Units and try to engage.

If you suspect that building to be occupied by the enemy and you have an MGS, just put a round or two into that building before you unload your infantry in front of it. The MGS is good in this role. The solution to your problem is very simple: use area fire aggressively and generously, especially when playing as the US. Hell, I use it a LOT playing as Red. You can't reliably spot units that are hiding in buildings so you're going to have to blow some of your ammo doing this to keep your casualty levels low.

Combine this with Normal Dude's overwatch tactic and you'll definitely see your casualty figures decrease drastically and have a great time playing as well.

[SgtMuhammed]

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER unload within the field of view of a suspected enemy position. All you do is set up a nice pop-up target range for the enemy. Unload behind at least one terrain feature. Use smoke to approach and plaster the area with machinegun fire from either vehicles or MMG teams before assaulting into the buildings.

[Taki]

PLayed the Airfield Mission and got 14 KIA and 24WIA. In the End i rushed the Special Forces HQ because time ran out. Got some heavy Casualties there. Mission time where way to short.

I still vote for chances of Spotting Units in Trenches or Indoor. Way it is right now its way to much "Pro-Defender". I think i can expect from a Highly trained US HQ Unit with Spotting Cababilitys that they can find enemy Targets on an Overwatch Position on a House in max 500m or so. But as it is right now they even cant spot them on 50m. Also the enemy dont break his Ambush Positions or get nervous on their triggers. Even green Units dont. Thats what needs some tweaking imho.

Thx for the Tips. But that Airfield Mission was one of the toughest Nut to crack. No US-unit would take such a Enemys Stronghold in 1h and 20min. I did the Trick but costs me 14KIA and weakended me on further Operations.

[Atago]

PLayed the Airfield Mission and got 14 KIA and 24WIA. In the End i rushed the Special Forces HQ because time ran out. Got some heavy Casualties there. Mission time where way to short.

I still vote for chances of Spotting Units in Trenches or Indoor. Way it is right now its way to much "Pro-Defender". I think i can expect from a Highly trained US HQ Unit with Spotting Cababilitys that they can find enemy Targets on an Overwatch Position on a House in max 500m or so. But as it is right now they even cant spot them on 50m. Also the enemy dont break his Ambush Positions or get nervous on their triggers. Even green Units dont. Thats what needs some tweaking imho.

Thx for the Tips. But that Airfield Mission was one of the toughest Nut to crack. No US-unit would take such a Enemys Stronghold in 1h and 20min. I did the Trick but costs me 14KIA and weakended me on further Operations.

I agree to a point. If you are stationary peaking up from a trench, through the bushes or out the corner of a window you are going to be hard to spot. On the other hand, a trained sniper or observer should eventually be able to see something fishy if they watch for it. All I would like is for the target arc command to also allow for an increase in spotting for the particular unit. That way if I have a sniper for example, and want him to carefully check out a building through his scope - he has a good chance (or better chance) to spot bad guys. If one leans out the window to point an RPG I'd like him to get a shot before the bad guy does.

[Uedel]

Yep in 1.10 Spotting got a LOT Harder, even when Facing irregular or untrained units, before u had at least some chances to find enemys, but now the only way to "Unhide" them is to provide them a Target.

Little TIP:

Use Humvees bottomed up as a Bullet Magneto, from some Range the enemy's often cant stand to shoot at them but usual doing not harm them but u get a clue where the Evil Boyz are hiding............

[Atago]

Yep in 1.10 Spotting got a LOT Harder, even when Facing irregular or untrained units, before u had at least some chances to find enemys, but now the only way to "Unhide" them is to provide them a Target.

Little TIP:

Use Humvees bottomed up as a Bullet Magneto, from some Range the enemy's often cant stand to shoot at them but usual doing not harm them but u get a clue where the Evil Boyz are hiding............

Good way to find RPG's and ATGM's too - though there are never enough sacrificial Hummers to go around

[Taki]

I request a Feature to Spot Enemy Units over time with enough Eyes/senonsor facing in a Direction. Time and short Distance should be easyer.

I got a Problem with how it is just now. Played the TF Thunder Campain Mission #5 i guess where you have to get the Airfiel Houses back and kill 3 T-54b. I came to the Crossroads and got that Building packed up with inf. Facing down on the other Site on the Road for about 5minutes. Absolutly nothing spotted

Then i unload a Stryker near the Buliding and the Hell broke loose simulatnously on the Red Site almost 30m away!

Hiding= ok

Firing simultanously, good Firedicipline = possible (on well trained Enemy units)

No Spotting of hiding units waiting in Ambush for over 5 Minutes on 30m with about 15 Eyes facing that Direction= absolutly unrealistic

[Paper Tiger]

Taki

Are you using area fire on these buildings? A significant quantity of area fire on a building will probably reveal some hiding enemy units and make them less able to react to your moves. If you think the building is occupied, HIT IT! And it's been said before...don't drive a stryker up in front of a suspected enemy position and dump your infantry there. Poorer quality troops will give away their positions more quickly than good quality troops. Scenario designers are fond of using better quality troops when creating US v Red AI missions to make it difficult for you so if you feel that Syrian fire discipline in the game is unrealistic, blame the scenario designer.

No Spotting of hiding units waiting in Ambush for over 5 Minutes on 30m with about 15 Eyes facing that Direction= absolutly unrealistic

actually, no, it's not. They're hiding! Try it yourself, get a friend to hide in a building and then you go outside and try to spot them from 30m for 5 minutes. Good luck. Your problem stems from lack of preparation (no area fire on suspected enemy positions) and overly rash tactical moves (unloading infantry in front of suspected, unprepped enemy positions.)

[Taki]

Problem is not to plaster all Buildings with Enemy suspected (wich are almost every Building in a Mission) and then make them react to you.

So there is our diffrence. I think, yes of course that there is a realistic Chance of spotting almost something (maybe a ? would do the Trick) is inside a Building when units laying an ambush on you.

Its okay when they are fully hidden and dont have Sight to you. But i got problems with Units fully hidden, full cover and got an easy spotting on you and react in an instant.

To keep with your example:

What if your Friend in a Building is waiting to setup an Ambush to you and have to spot on a Window from time to time? Still invisible to you?

[Meach]

To do it properly you stand well back from a window and have one guy with a scope or binoc's on a slightly higher elevation i.e standing on something in the room. The rest of the guys are well out of sight.

So you have this one guy in total shadow able to see out, very hard to be spotted, the rest of the section absolutley out of sight.

Spotter boy calls "Fire out" and everyone pops up, gets a target, hopefully pre-ranged and zeroed and all hell breaks loose.

This is basic stuff. The turbo nutter snake-eaters amongst us can elaborate on evasion and hit and fade tactics.

You could try and spot that section for hours and never see a thing. Just my tuppence worth from my days as a bullet catcher.

[Atago]

Hmm, I see the problem - yes it would be much easier to hang out in a building and watch what's outside than vice-versa.

On the flip side however, I can't see just plastering away at every building on a street as you move down it. Granted this is a game, not a simulation as such, and will not be realistic in all areas - but is that how it's really done in a combat environment, in a town where bad guys and RPG's can be in any window?

To me the situation is more annoying when you are watching a building for suspected bad guys, but they can still get an RPG up and into your Stryker before infantry can blow their little pee brains out. Maybe it's the same thing though, they are inside the window, standing back a bit and hard to see?

I like the Hummer Idea. Let them pop the hummer and give themselves away!

I now use them as bait far more than I should probably for realism purposes. It seems that the bad guys can't resist taking pot-shots at them though and revealing themselves often missing with the ATGM or RPG too - if you keep the hummer moving fast.

[Meach]

Plastering every building is ammo consuming, which can be punished by the scenario designer by awarding or taking away points for ammo expenditure. Plus buildings can be given points allocation for being preserved at the end of the battle. If the US destroys too many the embedded journalist sends home a nasty report of civilian casualties.... you get the idea.

[Taki]

So what is the real Army doing Meach? They dont shot at every building where the suspect enemys, and they dont run into ambushes all the time. So you told us how to hide Armylike in a building. Can you explain how to spot the bad guys hiding?

I stick with it. With unrealistic tactics of plastering every building or driving Hummers like mad around to make those RPG pop-up there is something wrong with the Gamemecanics concering spotting hidden Units.

[Meach]

If they don't trigger ambushes and don't plaster buildings I would say there was no enemy in the area. Spotting ambushes is probably one of the hardest things an infantry unit can do.

I don't recall any foolproof training other than movement and overwatch bounds. If someone is determined to hit you they will. It's damage limitation after that. A hostile force embedded in cover has massive superiority of a mobile force moving thru dense terrain. The best defence is simply not to put yourself in that situation.

For observation of suspected enemy positions you have to have yourself a trained observer with a various set of Infra-red or magnification scopes. It takes a long time to sit and just watch. Time, as everyone knows is a commanders worst enemy.

[Taki]

So the US-Army just plastering Buildings where they got that "feeling" where the enemy "could" be? Sounds weird to me.

We need the ability to spot enemy units in ambush positions and those units have to behave realistic (by info passed bye to them and units morale, experience) wich should trigger ambushpositions and firedicipline WAY earlyer.

As it is right now:

- Units are to hard to spot hiding in Ambush

- icecold ambush elite veterans (even green conscripts) that always wait for the magic moment to start shooting

[SgtMuhammed]

If they don't trigger ambushes and don't plaster buildings I would say there was no enemy in the area. Spotting ambushes is probably one of the hardest things an infantry unit can do.

I don't recall any foolproof training other than movement and overwatch bounds. If someone is determined to hit you they will. It's damage limitation after that. A hostile force embedded in cover has massive superiority of a mobile force moving thru dense terrain. The best defence is simply not to put yourself in that situation.

For observation of suspected enemy positions you have to have yourself a trained observer with a various set of Infra-red or magnification scopes. It takes a long time to sit and just watch. Time, as everyone knows is a commanders worst enemy.

Exactly. In real MOUT you do whatever you can to isolate your target. Routes of approach, smoke, cordoning off the area if possible, etc. It can take hours to take a single building. The problems with spotting the enemy are exactly what makes MOUT so deadly.

The only thing you can really do is keep good spacing so that if something does happen then hopefully the entire unit isn't in the kill zone. You train to react to ambushes until it becomes a reflex and hope that is enough.

If you are in a straight invasion operation then yes you would blast anything you suspected of being a threat. Preferably with arty or some other big guns but with your own arms if support isn't at hand. Of course the level of force you are able to use, and where you can use it, is dependent on the rules of engagement and can vary widely.

One big thing to keep in mind are the differences between the game and real life. MOUT is slow, the timeframe of an entire battle in CMSF is often the time it takes to take a single block or even a single building. In actual combat the difference between getting shot at and getting shot is much greater than the game would have you believe. Even in an ambush it is rare that a unit would suffer the casualties that you see in the game. The morale effect is MUCH more important than the actual damage caused. Real units will withdraw long before they are wiped out. A battle the size of Pooh from the campaign, for example, would most likely take at least a day and result in about 50 casualties total. So the normal dilema isn't to care for guys once they have been shot but to get them to do something useful once they are being shot at.

Anyway my point is that even things that sound "weird" are often exactly what happens. Combat is dirty business and there really aren't any magic bullets that can change it to any major degree.

[Paper Tiger]

Taki

I think we just approach this game from different viewpoints. For me, I have NO military experience whatsoever. However, I have a solid 33 years of wargaming experience under my belt and that means, holidays and sickness apart, I've played them almost every single day. For me, this is a wargame, and not a reality simulator. I can say with 100% certainty that Area fire has been a part of tactical wargames since the original Squad Leader, which I played, and it was certainly part of CMBO when I played it too.

Now, I have NO idea how frequently area fire is used, or indeed at all, by troops who are in a REAL war zone, i.e. NOT fighting police actions against insurgents. The answer to that may be yes or no and I'll leave that to the real-life military guys to answer. So, I am addressing your problem from the perspective that we're both playing a wargame that uses area fire. Therefore, you should be using area fire and prepping those positions before moving your troops into the open to attack them.

[Taki]

i got no Problem with that Paper Tiger. I see this game as a wargame too not a reality simulator. On the other Hand this Game is trying to give you a good feel for the "Real" thing (if not we could play Space Lobster Shock FOrce with Hollow Tanks and such stuff).

I just got Problems with Game feels not that "Real" in Spotting Hiding units waiting in Ambush Position. My Point of View is that there should be at least a chance to gather a tiny Clue that there is "something" after some minutes of high-tec-sensors-army watching a housefront.

I dont want to know what is exactly there and how many of them (I got another Problem with spotting Units, u start seeing the Unit and exactly now what you are facing, wich is unrealistic too) but just the sense that there is "something".

Thats what disturbing my wargame enjoyment

Just to dont let it get out of sight, i think 1.10 is a great thing to play with. but Unit spotting (ambush, Unit Type etc.) still needs some tweaking and fixing.

[Atago]

I expect that that bad guys hiding in ambush are probably very, very hard to spot. I think the problem probably comes form the artificial time limit that the game demands. It doesn't often give you time to really look over the approaches and set up a good, proper "sweep" of a building or building area.

What I seem to run into most frequently is enemy troops that are ice cold and seem to know exactly when to start firing - doing a lot of damage before what's left of my troops start to return fire. The other problem is that they'll have spots to ambush from where only the squad moving in is can fire at them, overwatch units can't help. Even with pretty green enemy troops, it seems they don't give themselves away very often (if at all) before they're told to fire.

So after reading the various responses and thinking a bit - I'm not so sure that the ambushing ability is necessarily off. I do think that the ambushing troops - if green - should have some potential for giving themselves away early through a mistake on their part (peaking out a window too early, jumping gun, etc).

I know my sacrificial humvee tactic isn't very realistic, and probably no one's going to tell a humvee crew to go drive out in the open and get shot at. It works though, and until I find other tactics that suffice... well - they're not real Marines or Soldiers .