what is the rank of a battalion commander in the U.S. infantry?

[dugfromthearth]

I need to know for a scenario briefing.

[Maj. Battaglia]

It depends. CM uses Major (in the rank prefix to the HQ leader's name). I have also seen lt. colonels as Bn commanders, and captains as well. Probably there were lieutenants at certain times.

There was not necessarily a correlation between appointment and rank.

[wbs]

More often than not, it is a Lt. Colonel's slot, with a Major as the executive officer.

In combat, lower ranks may hold the position if the commanding officer is Killed/Wounded/Captured.

[ December 02, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: wbs ]

[dugfromthearth]

thanks

[LT. James Cater]

I remember reading about the Hurtgen forest battle a long time ago.

Apparently, one batalion of the 28th infantry was so torn up that the when relieved they were commanded by a Corporal!

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Just for fun could someone post a rank vs what type of unit it controlled. If that is unclear I mean a lt. col is in charge of a bn, right who controls a rgt., a div., company, corps, army, ect. I realize that command ranks vary especially during war time. But, a good reference pt. would be nice.

Thanks

[Cold Steel]

Here is a typical, world war 2 era appointment by rank for the United States army. Again, as stated earlier, officers of lower ranks than these often held these assignments due to combat attrition.

army group (lt. general, general)

army (lt. general)

corps (maj. general)

division (maj. general)

combat command of armored div. (brig. general)

regiment (colonel)

battalion (lt. colonel)

company (captain)

platoon (1st and 2nd Lt.)

[JonS]

UK Army:

Army Group . General / Field Marshall

Army . . . . . Lt. General / General

Corps. . . . . Lt. General

Division . . . Maj. General

Brigade. . . . Brigadier

Battalion. . . Lt. Colonel (could also be termed a Regiment for

. . . . . . . . . artillery and armour units)

Company. . . Major

Platoon. . . . 1st or 2nd Lt.

Section. . . . Corporal

[ May 25, 2004, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

In the German Army, there were no brigadiers, so

Army Group - Generaloberst/Generalfeldmarschall

Army - General der Infanterie (Panzertruppen, etc.)

Corps - Generalleutnant

Division - Generalmajor

Regiment - Oberst

Battalion - Oberstleutnant

Company - Major, Hauptmann, Oberleutnant

Platoon - 1 per company by a Leutnant, the rest by NCOs (Feldwebel generally)

Section/Squad - Unteroffizier

The Germans had specific appointment titles depending on whether or not you were "qualified" and/or specifically appointed to a specific command slot.

For example, a Major commanding a company was called "Kompaniechef" (Company Chief), whereas an officer of lower rank, or an officer of the correct rank acting in temporary command was called a "Kompanieführer" (Company Leader)

A Battalion Commander was a Bataillons Kommandeur (sp?) whereas an acting commander was a Bataillonsführer (Battalion Leader)

Etc.

[Kitty]

Dorosh is right.

Kitty

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Kitty:

Dorosh is right.

Kitty

Shouldn't you be in the flees?

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Thanks guys. (or gals)

Cold Steel; I notice you omitted Major?

JonS; you omitted Captain?

To me it seems a Major in charge of a company is heavy handed shouldn't a Major have a Battalion?

For the US, is it battalion - regiment - brigade - division - corps - army?

How many companies to a battalion?

How many battalions to a regiment?

I'm not familiar with the term brigade.

What is a good WW2 OOB for US, USSR, Ger? Specifically, detailing where the division served which corps/army it was attached to and who commanded it.

I have Nafitzer's (sp)German Infantry OOB, but unfortunately it doesn't list what ranks are in charge of each group nor does it list who commanded the division and where it served. Besides that, it is a good reference guide.

Is a section the same thing as a squad? corpral = section, what does sergant = ? I know that there are NCO for all the grouping but what does a 3 stripe command?

Could someone explain the make up of the HQ sections and corrasponding ranks. Is the HQ section the "command staff"? Such as executive officer, intelligence officer, chief medical officer, ect. Every group has a HQ section are they all similiar in make up just lower ranks and authority?

Sorry for all the questions but my ignorance is without boundaries.

[ May 25, 2004, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: FM Paul Heinrik ]

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Instead of new post i edited the one above. This can be deleted.

[ May 25, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: FM Paul Heinrik ]

[flamingknives]

I didn't think that the US used Brigades in WWII, but I could well be wrong.

For British/Commonwealth, there were 4 rifle companies, plus a support company, per battalion. The Regiment was a parent organisation, but was rarely, if ever, deployed as a formation. The battalion was the building block used to put larger formations together. A Brigade was three battalions and a Division 3 Brigades plus support - MG Battalion, RA Field regiments, Atk Regiments, AA regiments, logistics, engineers and signals.

AIUI, the US army in WWII deployed as regiments, each consisting of 9 rifle companies, with 3 support companies, arranged into 3 battalions of 3 rifle companies and one support company. I don't know much above that level.

Going smaller, A Commonwealth section (=US Squad) was led by a Corporal, while a lance-corporal commanded the gun group (Bren gun, assistant gunner and LCpl) while the Cpl took the rifle group in to the attack. Sgts would be the senior NCO in a platoon and would work with the platoon officer. IIRC, in the US Army, each squad was commanded by a Sgt.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by FM Paul Heinrik:

Thanks guys. (or gals)

Cold Steel; I notice you omitted Major?

JonS; you omitted Captain?

That's because in the US Army, companies were commanded by Captains, and in Commonwealth armies, by Majors (although I believe that for the first half of the war the British Army rule was 2 coys led by Majors and 2 by Captains).

All the best,

John.

[Michael Dorosh]

John is correct, there was a mixture of majors and captains in company command.

Some platoons in Support Company were also commanded by captains, notably the carrier platoon.

Also, flaminknives omitted Headquarters Company, which had 1 Platoon (signals) and 2 Platoon (Administration). The Transport Officer was a captain.

A detailed breakdown of an infantry battalion in WW II is at my site at

http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/

Scroll down the left hand frame.

[JonS]

Originally posted by FM Paul Heinrik:

JonS; you omitted Captain?

To me it seems a Major in charge of a company is heavy handed shouldn't a Major have a Battalion?

John and Mike answered this already. I'm working on the basis of a Battalion at full strength, with no one sick, away on courses, etc, and each slot filled by the correct rank. Also, the 2iC in a company was traditionally a captain. The same tends to apply all the way up the chain - the 2iC at any level is one rank lower than the unit commander, but one rank higher than the sub-unit commanders. If not strictly higher in rank, the 2iC tended to be 'senior' in the rank concerned.

After a few days in combat - especially heavy combat (eg Normandy, El Alamein, Cassino, etc) all bets are off, though the general trend is slots being filled by lower (occasioonaly much lower) ranks than normal. There is an occasional counter to that trend - for example when Rommel the divisional commander took over control of his rifle brigade during the crossing of the Meuse in 1940.

For the US, is it: squad - company - battalion - regiment - brigade - division - corps - army?

Yes. For the UK it is: section - company - battalion - brigade - brigade - division - corps - army

In WWII: {UK Brigade} <=> {US Regiment} and {UK Section} <=> {US Squad}, for all practical purposes.

How many companies to a battalion?

US = 3 rifle Coys and a Heavy Wpns Coy + admin

UK = 4 Rifle Coys and a Support Coy (heavy wpns) + admin

How many battalions to a regiment?

US Regt = 3 rifle bns or 3 armd bns

UK Inf Bde = 3 rifle bns

UK Tank Bde = 3 armd 'bns' (usually called regiments, though for some units called bns)

UK Armd Bde = 3 armd bns (usually called regiments, though for some units called bns) + one motorised inf bn

I'm not familiar with the term brigade.

It doesn't seem to have been a term that the US used until sometime post-WWII. Most other armies did use it though, and for all practical purposes it is functionally the same as a US regiment.

What is a good WW2 OOB for US, ... Specifically, detailing where the division served which corps/army it was attached to and who commanded it.

* Clickable table of organisation of a US Infantry Division (in this case the Century Div, but it could be any late 1944 US Inf Div). Click on a particular unit to see its make up, and you can 'dive down' to quite low level.

* Combat Chronicles of all US Divs in WWII

* OoBs for all US Divs in Europe

I have Nafitzer's (sp)German Infantry OOB, but unfortunately it doesn't list what ranks are in charge of each group nor does it list who commanded the division and where it served. Besides that, it is a good reference guide.

I've the Infantry and the Panzer volumes. They are ok, but seem to be riddled with errors, of varying degrees of severity. I'm sure that he has the regiments and the brigades correct, but the lower level stuff is questionable - though certainly a very good start. Other places to get corroborating info are Feldgrau (click on for example 'Heer', then 'Infanterie-Divisionen') and The Axis History Factbook (Link is to the Heer page, then click on for example 'Panzer-Divisionen' or 'Infanterie-Divisionen'). Lexicon Der Wehrmacht is also supposed to be very good, but is in German only.

Is a section the same thing as a squad?

Yes, but in different national armies.

corporal = section, what does sergant = ? I know that there are NCO for all the grouping but what does a 3 stripe command?

In the UK infantry; nothing. It is a staff (administrative) role.

In an armoured unit a sgt might command a tank (but corporals also command tanks), and in artillery units a sgt will command each gun. In both cases other sgts will have the equivalent admin role as in inf units.

Could someone explain the make up of the HQ sections and corrasponding ranks. Is the HQ section the "command staff"? Such as executive officer, intelligence officer, chief medical officer, ect. Every group has a HQ section are they all similiar in make up just lower ranks and authority?

Essentially, yes. From battalion up (eg, bn, bde, div) each unit tends to have two HQs. One is the TAC HQ which is very small, very mobile, and very close to the fighting. It's role is to conduct the battle. The Main HQ is larger, further back, and tends to be quite stationary. Its role is to plan for the next battle, and make sure that administrative matters (food and bullets moving forward, wounded and POWs moving back) for the current battle are handled efficiently.

Sorry for all the questions but my ignorance is without boundaries.

It's cool :cool: Hopefully you'll get useful answers to your questions. But beware: you can spend a life time on this, and still not get it all squared away. Most of the answers in this thread have been generic and/or for standard units. Once you start getting into the more unusual units, or standard units in specific circumstances, you'll be ripping your hair out

Regards

JonS

Edits: blimmin' UBB. And corrected numpty pointed out by Dorosh in the following post.

[ May 25, 2004, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: JonS ]

[Michael Dorosh]

2 i/c in a battalion was a captain? The Adjutant and IO were generally captains, but was the DCO not always a Major? He would have to be of higher or equal rank to his Coy comds, no?

[JonS]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

2 i/c in a battalion was a captain?

No, because 'battalion' should of course read 'company' in my previous post. I've corrected it now. I concur with Doroshs other points.

[JonS]

Discussion of French OoB in May 1944 here by me. There is more available from that source, particularly on the Goums.

[FM Paul Heinrik]

Thank you all for the wonder info.

The links provided are very good.

Another, question....

How did appointment to command positions work? If you were a 2nd to the xo (the 2nd over all commander) in a infantry battalion. Would you be promoted to the xo position or would you be promoted and then moved to 3rd or 4th in command of the regiment? Did command positions just rotate around depending on rank, or if you were in a forward combat commmand you usually stayed attached to forward HQ units?

What is more prestigious and career building a col. of an infantry regiment/battalion or being a col. in a divisional HQ.

I guess the ultimate goal would be to achieve 4 star status (US). Which assignments take you there quicker.

Bare with me on the terminology, I'm still trying to get all the lingo down.

Another series of questions....

How much control did a battalion/regiment commader have to conduct war? Was it strictly tactical command? Did the Divisional commander implement strategy or was that the role of the corps or army HQ? At what level did micro managing of companies stop? Was HQ's job to just to keep their "group" cooperating effectively between one another all the way down the chain of command? And I'm sure this stuff is pre-taught at "war college" but it also seems that some of the best commanders did things their own way regardless of what superiors wanted.

[ May 26, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: FM Paul Heinrik ]

[arax3]

Thanks Michael! My dad was a major in WWII and commanded an artillery battalion. A3

[Maj. Battaglia]

JonS,

Not to be Mr. Picky, but the US did use brigades before WWI, such as in the Civil War. I can't say without further research when they got rid of them as a standard formation.

But even during WWII they were there, even if not always in actual name, and were used for various purposes. For example, the four artillery battalions of an infantry division were a brigade. The Army had six Engineer Special (formerly Amphibian) Brigades. Merrill's Marauders was essentially a brigade (even though smaller than a standard infantry regiment and called a Composite Unit (Provisional)--it was led by a brigadier general). There are other examples as well. Outside of the artillery within a division, the term was used to designate independent units smaller than division, and units of an experimental or ad hoc nature. But your overall point, that they were not a standard infantry unit akin to Commonwealth brigades, is absolutelty true.

As you mention, the US reinstated them as a more common formation after WWII, in the 1980s (if I recall correctly).

[General Bolt]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I'm not familiar with the term brigade.

It doesn't seem to have been a term that the US used until sometime post-WWII. Most other armies did use it though, and for all practical purposes it is functionally the same as a US regiment. </font>

[Determinant]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />corporal = section, what does sergant = ? I know that there are NCO for all the grouping but what does a 3 stripe command?

In the UK infantry; nothing. It is a staff (administrative) role.

In an armoured unit a sgt might command a tank (but corporals also command tanks), and in artillery units a sgt will command each gun. In both cases other sgts will have the equivalent admin role as in inf units.

Regards

JonS

Edits: blimmin' UBB. And corrected numpty pointed out by Dorosh in the following post. </font>