JasonC Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Order of battle info, unit strengths, etc sought for the above period. Brief overview - on Oct 15, 1943, Konev's 2nd Ukrainian Front breaks out of its bridgeheads on the west bank of the Dnepr, and drives southwest then south, across the rail lines to the far end of the Dnepr bend position, and specifically to the city of Krivoi Rog. 5th Tank Army is in the lead after the infantry breakout, with runs over among other things the German 57th armee korps. The Germans react by sending first the 11th PD (reduced) and SS-T from the 8th Army (west and slightly north), but they at first can only slow the Russians' advance. Then reinforcements arrive from the west, clear from France - the newly recreated 14th and 24th PDs, successors to the divisions of the same numbers destroyed at Stalingrad. Joined by SS-T as the XXXX Panzer korps, they hit Konev's right or north flank and halt the drive on Krivoi Rog, with serious losses. Data points I already have - SS-T has been topped off fairly regularly over the campaign, at least compared to the other forces in continuous action, which are step reduced or worse. 9 kompany, SS Pz Rgt 3 as 23 Tiger Is on strength as of 3 October, 5 of them recent arrivals. Infantry and engineers about 50% strength, artillery and flak 75%, services effectively 100%. I don't have tank strength for the rest of the panzer regiment (Jentz may, haven't checked it, don't have a good enough library at hand). 14th and 24th PDs are recent arrivals after rebuilding in the west. But I don't know if they have any Panthers yet, or if those are still training (I suspect the latter, but definite information would be useful). 506th Tiger is listed as with 17th Armee korps at this time, and reports losses on 20 October at the height of the fighting. But the whole southern wing was active, and I do not have its actual position, nor that of 17th Armee corps. I suspect it was farther east nearer the tip of the Dnepr bend, but again info would help. GD Panzer has recently recrossed the Dnepr and is playing fire brigade, but is not listed among the German formations used against Konev at this time. I suspect it is east of the drive of Krivoi Rog. (I know it fought for that place in round II in January, but that isn't the question - the first, October 1943 attempt is). The standard high level sources are quite terse about this very interesting battle. Ziemke is full of command decisions about whether to evac the bend or the Crimea - in other words, he can't be bothered to leave the bunker and watch the war. He has less than a paragraph on the successful counterattack, after some references to gathering the forces. Erickson is worse - Konev has to turn back because his tanks (IDed as 18th Tank Corps) run out of ammunition and his infantry support has been stopped by the German flanking move, plus it is getting dark in the big city (lol). (The Germans claim 300 tanks and 5000 PWs, 2 mobile corps and 9 rifle "divisions" defeated, in a quite terse division history, in which the Russians are faceless lumps to be kicked about). I found one Russian source map of the fighting from their perspective, following one mech corps in particular, but a much longer period makes it look like more of a continuous advance than it was. From the stage of the fighting, my working assumption is anything that isn't a new arrival is step reduced, while the German infantry formations are more like twice step reduced, except their artillery which is once reduced about. SS-T is strong at nearly half strength and 75% arty, and an oversized Tiger company leading the Panzer regiment. 14 PD and 24PD are undoubtedly monsters by comparison, simply as new arrivals fully rebuilt. The Russian RDs are more like regiments at best. I have less of a handle on the strength of the Russian mobile corps, but assume it is about 2/3rds strength at the start of the operation and near zero by the end of it. All of this, though, is far from a full OOB with every SU regiment and Russian AA regiment and motorized AT regiment ticketed and sorted, or exact model and type for tank strengths running by date and unit. Bracket info on the named formations is still useful, but the October 15 strength is the most relevant date. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Hi Have you consulted Glantz's Forgotten Battles series? If not I can look for you by the end of the week but am currently locked in purda doing my VAT return. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 Just out of curiosity, whats the purpose for gathering this info, possible CMC setup? IIRC an op editor will be coming with the game. I never heard of this city nor the battle for it until I played the all-armour map for Red Orchestra, it's huge and lots of fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 26, 2008 Share Posted August 26, 2008 A quick survey of Forgotten Battles shows: 1) very detailed map of action 15th Oct to 3rd Nov 2nd Ukranian Front 2) general map of same 3) OOB of Soviet forces 57th Army 37th Army 7th Guards Army and 5th Guards Tank Army 11th November Let me know if any of this is any good to you. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 Yes that would certainly be useful, I don't have access to FB at the moment (library-less). Armor strengths would also be useful. 11 November is after the main period of interest but as a "bracket" is still something. Meatr - I am continuing a series of scenario packs on a "main line" narrative of crucial fighting in the east. I intend to make a scenario pack out of this operation. Sure a campaign would be great too, but I found those took so much time I couldn't get scope with them. Instead these days I try to capture my own take on an operation in a half dozen to a dozen moderate sized scenarios. There were 2 epic battles over this ground in the period - the first in the second half of October 1943, and the second in January 1944. They don't get the press of the Kiev to Zhitomir campaign or Korsun pocket, but they were critical fights, with some real heavy hitters involved on both sides. It was also something of a Tiger-magnet in January (GD, 3SS, 506 and 509). In January it was also a main site where the limited run of KV-85s were used. The October period is arguably even more important, though. It sets up the very hard fighting around Kiev in November. If Konev had broken clean through to the Black, that would have been a side show. I consider this little unsung fight a backhand blow redux and another of Manstein's finest productions, showing how to use mobile reserves on defense. It also helps to explain the continue Russian obsession with their flanks in penetrations - some sources present that as overcaution and a flaw (notably Ziemke, echoing German arrogance no doubt), but when it wasn't exercised, whole armies could get waxed in less than a week. One day a freshly made hole a hundred miles long apparently has next to nothing enemy anywhere along it, and it looks crazy to cover it with anything more than a thin screen. The next day an entire panzer corps comes flying out of nowhere and smashes through that screen and across your flank. Etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Hi Sorry for the delay but do not have a scanner at present, so map might be a few of days. I can see on the map the following German units (but it is a confusing map!) 123 ID 125 ID 304 ID 151 ID 62 ID 294 ID 384 ID 76 ID 16th Pz Gr Div 9th Pz Div 11 Pz Div 23rd Pz Div 14th Pz Div 1 Pz Div 24 Pz Div 11 Pz Div SS AH SS Totenkopf "1 CD" which may mean Gross Deutchland who were next to 9th Pz near Mishurin Rog 203rd Assault Detchment 210 Assault Detch 236 Assault Detch 232 Assault Deatchment (XXX AC) 656 Pz Regt 506 Pz Gr Bn (probably means Tiger Bn) From the article I have drawn the following: Konev Steppe Front (20th Oct 2nd Ukranian Front) Kremenchug-Krivoi Rog (Piatikhatki) Offensive 15thOct-3rd Nov 11th November OOB 57th Army 27th GRC: 48th 58th GRD 53rd RD 64th RC: 52nd GRD 80th GRD 93rd GRD 68th RC: 113rd RD 409th RD 96th Tank Bde 37th Army 57th RC: 1st 15th GAirDiv 92nd GRD 82nd RC: 10th GAirDiv 28th GRD 118th RD 89th GRD 213rd RD 228th RD 43rd Sep Tank Regt 7th Guards Army 24th GRC 8th GAirDiv 36th 72nd 81st GRD 25th GRC 41st 73rd 78th GRD 49th RC 19th 223rd 303rd RD 1st Mech Corps: 19th 35th 37th Mech Bde 219th Tank Bde 5th GTA 5th G Mech Corps: 10th 11th 12th G Mech Bde 24th G Tank Bde 104th G SP Art Regt 1147th SP Art Regt 1529th SP Art Regt 18th Tank Corps 110th Tank Bde 107th Tank Bde 181st Tank Bde 32nd Motor Rifle Bde 1438th SP Art Regt 1543rd SP Art Regt 29th Tank Corps 25th Tank Bde 31st Tank Bde 32nd Tank Bde 53rd Motor Rifle Bde 1446th SP Art Regt 1549th SP Art Regt 53rd Sep Tank Regt 14th Nov 7th Mech Corps attached to 5GTA. Refitting to rear. 11th Nov 5GTA: 358 tanks 253 T34 70 T70 35 SP guns 1st Mech Corps 100 tanks 20th Tank Corps 'considerably fewer' Konev's Front forces are 'threadbare' 41st GRD 2,845 men 28th GRD 200 men per regt Interesting how many old friends are present from the south face of the Kursk battle. Particularly the 52nd GRD which took the full force of II SS Pz Corps attack and was shattered in the first days fighting. Found other items: http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/1944/JAN_1944/JAN_1944_PAGES_26_36.pdf From Feldgrau.net "I am currently working with some sources on GD panzer losses and found interesting information. So, during only one month of combats of 1943 (29 Sep -29 Oct 1943) GD lost 35 Tigers as a complete write-off! 29 Sep 1943 - 4 Tigers are lost in action 9 Oct 1943 - 5 Tigers are lost in action 18 Oct 1943 - 13 Tigers are lost; 10 Tigers (ex-Pz Lehr) that were on the way to III. Abt Pz Rgt GD are captured by the Russians while being moved by rail 20 Oct 1943 - 7 Tigers are lost in action, 23 Tigers on hand, in action near Krivoi Rog 23 Oct 1943 - 6 Tigers are lost to the end of the month I am especially interested on the accident happened on October 18th 1943, when 10 Tigers were captured by Russians while being moved by rail. Does somebody can provide details how and where exactly this happened? Thanks in advance. a massive russian attack started from the bridgehead near Mischurin Rog on 15.10.1943. The left neighbour of GD was the 9. Panzerdivision. Russian tanks moved through their line without a stop to the railroad Pjatichatki-Bykowo. The railway station Pjatichatki was in the rear of 9. PD and GD, some trains were standing in the railway station. They were destroyed by russian tanks, which broke through the thin lines of both divisions and hurried to the south. After this, the railway station was retaken, the tanks were destroyed. Many wounded men, which also were on the trains, died. quoted from Spaeter, Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland and Schneider, TiK. Some more details from the official Soviet Information Bureau statement of October 19th, 1943. “During 19th October 1943 in the area to the south-east of Kremenchug our troops breaking enemy resistance went on developing offensive and advanced up to 15-20 kilometers managed to capture a town and railroad nod of Pyatikhatka… Thus an important communication line of Germans, the Dnepropetrovsk-Znamenka railroad, was cut by our forces. According to some rough estimation the following booties were captured by our troops: fifteen railroad cars, 30 tanks including 17 Tigers, 172 cannons, 1,300 half-trucks/cars, 600 machine guns and munitions/rations depots/warehouses. 1,800 German soldiers and officers were captures as POW.” The Soviet tankers who captured a train with Tigers belonged to the 29th Tank Corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army of General Pavel Rotmistrov. Some information from 'The History of Panzerregiment Großdeutschland, by Hans-Joachim Jung': "On 17 October 1943 the enemy was at Taranzoff. The enemy spearheads turned and spread confusion among supply, workshop and medical units. At Pjatichatki ambulance trains were were shot up and set on fire. The wounded saved themselves on foot at the last minute. Counterattacking units found a frightful scene when they reached the railroad station. Ten new Tigers destined for III./Panzerregiment Großdeutschland fell into the enemy hands, still on the flatcars with their transport tracks. Unit trains fleeing Pjatichatki lost a number of vehicles to enemy tank fire. " Here is a description of the same combat in Helmuth Spaeter, The History of the Panzercorps GD: "The group comprising the remnants of III (Tiger) Battalion, Panzer Regiment GD, under command of Oberleutnant Bayer, commander of 11th Company, suffered a severe loss on the 8th or 9th of October. A joint advance against the well-known "seven-nipple hill", east of Point 172.2, several Tigers together with the 2nd (APC) Company, Armoured Reconnaissance Battalion GD and the following infantry. Employing all of means available, this attack was supposed to finally place this decisive group of hills in German hands. The attack began in the late morning. While the panzers with their wide tracks made comparatively rapid progress in the difficult terrain and were able to pass through the tall sunflower and wheat fields with relative ease, the small number of one-ton armoured personnel carriers were left behind at the edge of these fields with twisted tracks. As well the men in the open APCs had to defend themselves against the numerous Soviets who, hidden in thei foxholes, tried to toss grenades into the vehicles. The advance was thus slowed to a crawl. Contact was lost with the fast-moving panzers. Apparently the enemy had also realized that the tanks had lost their infantry cover and permitted them to drive through unmolested. They then sealed off the area behind the panzers with anti-tank guns and hand-held weapons and encircled them. Neither were tanks, which were now under fire from all sides by anti-tank guns, able to break through to the rear; nor could the armoured personnel carriers pierce the Soviet blocking ring and establish contact with them. Stukas and reconnaissance aircraft later determined that all the surrounded tanks had been knocked out or captured. By evening the radio listening service had learned the names of the survivors who had been taken prisoner. They included Oberleutnant Arnold (10th Company), leader of the panzer operation, Leutnant Folke (9th Company), Oberfeldwebel Friedebach (H.Q. Company), Obergefreiter Jensen (H.Q. Company), Obergefreiter Fritz (H.Q. Company) and Unteroffizier Mueller (H.Q. Company). Leutnant Folke returned in 1953 after ten years as a prisoner, nothing more was ever heard of the others. With this loss the number of operational tanks had fallen to zero. The effects of this were to make themselves felt in the decisive fight for Borodayevka in the following days.” Helmuth Spaeter, The History of the Panzercorps GD, Vol. 2, PP. 217-218 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 quite useful thanks. I also have a German-side map, linked here - perhaps it is the same you found. The most useful is the post from Jan-Hedrik about half way down, showing a XXXX Corps operations map covering the period 22 October through 2 November. http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?p=128673#128673 The 200 series "Assault detachments" are obviously StuG battalions. The 506 is of course the famous Tiger battalion and yes it is confirmed in the area, as are Elephants from 656 - there is even u-tube video of those fighting in the area at this time (showing very open fields well suited to them, I might add). The Russian "air divisions" are parachute infantry divisions. Yes I knew of the GD Tiger loss by date table, though the details are great and were new to me. And the detailed Russian OOB is exactly the sort of thing I wanted... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 I also have a data point on the air effort - German sorties over the battlefield from the Krivoi Rog sector over to the Dnepr bend, in this period, ran 1200 per day when the weather permitted. The fall offensive had move the front closer to their fields and farther from Russian ones, and the air strength shifted accordingly. On the other hand, weather was poor for much of the period, with rains half the time and the ground soggy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Also found this: ARMOURED GUARDS Red Army Tank Commanders: 15th October 7th Mech and 2 Bde 18th TC (total 105 tanks) cross the river 16th October 2 Tank and 1 MR Bde from 29th Tank Corps cross (109 tanks) Shortages of ammo and fuel hamper advance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 29, 2008 Author Share Posted August 29, 2008 They seem to be strong at the begining and half to a third by the end - the Russian tank strengths I mean. Maybe not full TOE starting, but 70-80% or so. The RDs have to be in significantly worse shape, however. We could really use input from someone with a copy of Jentz, for German type mixes. I can get a complete accounting of Tigers easily enough, it is Panthers that have a large "error bar". GD has them, but they are the leftovers from the first batch pretty much. When they run out of the old ones as runners in early November, their own Panther battalion is sent back to Germany to refit with and get trained on newer model Panthers, but they get a Panther battalion from another division in the meantime. But that is after the period of interest. 14th and 24th PDs are recent builds from the west and could easily have full strength Panther battalions. But I haven't seen any reference to it. Divisional TOEs I've seen for them seem to claim their panzer regiments had 3 battalions, which seems unlikely to say the least (one may be training in Germany as a "depot battalion" though, I suppose). I don't even know if SS-T got Panthers after Kursk, as I know some of the other SS divisions did. Probably did though, high on the priority list. How many around in October, if so? Jentz would just have the numbers... The forces in the area have 100 Tigers, but the above puts the Panther total anywhere between 50 and 250. From not a major factor beyond the Tigers to "the Germans are monsters as soon as 14th and 24th arrive"... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I'll be able to check it for you this weekend. I think I did an operation called Kampfgrupped Langkeit which deals with some of the fighting around this area about the same time. I'll post more on Saturday Jason. Cheers fur noo George 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Hi Am struggling with German unit numbers on this one. I have the 25th Pz Div at Fatsov, newly raised and sent to the East with Pz Regt 9 from Norway, refitted and re-equipped. It has 90 PzIVs, ie around 6 companies in 2 battalions. Pz Bn 509 45 Tiger Is. source: Scorched Earth Paul Carrell 22nd Sept Wiking Das Reich and Totenkopf each with 25 tanks and 12 StuGs and 100 men in each PzGr Bn. November - Kiev counter attack SS LAH (refitted) 95 Panthers, 95 PzIvs and 27 Tiger Is. 1st Pz Div 95 PzIvs 76 Panthers 25th Pz Div 93 PzIVs Pz Bn 509 25 Tiger Is Das Reich 22 PzIvs 6 PzIIIs and 10 Tigers 7th Pz Div 20 tanks 19th Pz Div 20 tanks source Steel Storm - Tim Ripley (quotes Jentz as a source) Sorry I cannot find more, but at least this is a decent bracket. I would conclude that units in the field such as Totenkopf are stuck with their old tanks PzIVs and Tigers and that units are still being sent from the Reich with PzIVs but that favoured units such as SS LAH are getting a Panther Regt in addition to their normal Regt when they refit in the Reich. I do not see Totenkopf being better equipped than Das Reich, so I doubt they had any Panthers at this stage. Only a guess mind. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 If I mind some of these army panzer units might have had mixed panzer regiments i.e. one battalion Stugs the other Panzer IVs. Jentz has a combat account from one of these units. Not long in from work so will post more tomorrow. Cheers fur noo George 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 OK - stayed up late - so here goes. Let me know if you need other info: German OOB some numbers Source: Jentz 14th Panzer Division Appears to have only had the III Battalion. III Battalion Pz Rgt 36 49 PzIV 44 Stug 9 Command panzers 7 Flamepanzers Organised into four companies. 24th Panzer Division Only III Battalion Pz Rgt 24 49 PzIV 44 Stug 9 Command panzers 14 Flamepanzers. Note: before going into action all companies at 22 AFVs per company. By early November after nine days combat the average strength of a company was 10 – 15 AFVs. II Abteilung Pz Rgt 23 96 PzV operational Aug 43 By September 20th they have 8 operational split into two small groups 8 with Kampfgruppe Sander and 3 with the battalion. The other 57 are awaiting repair. I Abteilung SS Pz Regt 2 71 PzV operational Aug 43 LSSAH (Nov 43) Jentz shows 96 operational Panthers going into action. Panther I Abteilung Khulmann arrives at the front 7/8th November. By Nov 15th only has 35 Panthers operational. 7 write offs and 54 out of action being repaired. LSSAH also has 95 PzIV and 9 command tanks. The heavy company has 27 PzVI 1st Panzer Div (Nov 43) IPz Regt 1 has two battalions, four companies in each with 95 PzIV 76 PzV 7 Command Panzers 7 Flamepanzers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 That is very useful thanks. But some of it clearly refers to the later Zhitomir counterattack period, from mid November on, which was directed at stopping Vatutin's breakout from Kiev, rather than Konev's drive farther south. 25th PD was green in its first commitment against Vatutin's armor, according to descriptions of that later campaign. 509 is first used up there for that period as well, and I know it assigned 2 companies, 1 each, to 2SS and 25th PD. Most useful to me is the half Pz IV, half StuG design of the 14th and 24th PDs. That makes sense - Panthers still training in Germany, but still powerful western built formations by the depleted standards of the rest of the front. I find the 3SS strength of 25 tanks and 12 StuGs a little harder to credit, though, at least for early October, since I have a strength report which lists 9 company alone with 23 Tiger Is as of early October. It seems unlikely they'd have nothing but Tigers and StuGs. Probably it was being rebuilt as soon as it cross the Dnepr, and its late October strength was higher again. I say that because I have a contrary report that puts the infantry strength at the equivalent of 3 battalions, with the arty at 75% strength, in mid October. But at any rate, SS-T is not sporting 90 long 75 AFVs with 80mm fronts, as 14th and 24th are, even without any Panthers. The correlation of forces is now pretty clear, in its main outlines at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 More umbers on the Soviet side from "School of Battle" by Charles Sharp (sorry to not own the Mech Corps volume) 18th TC Aug receives 106th Guards Motor Bn (8 BM13) and 78th Motorcycle Bn Nov strength 40 tanks in each Bde but still 25% T70s! 1543rd SU equipped with SU152 1439th SU equipped with SU85 29th TC Sept 43 joined by 1549th SU with SU152 Oct 43 joined by 11th Guards Mortar Bn (8 BM13) and 1446th SU with SU85 On 23rd Oct Corps had 26 tanks. cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 That helps too, especially the vehicle IDs for the SU regiments, since it is harder to infer. It is perfectly normal that there are still some T-70s in the mix, by the way. Production had changed over to SU-76s, but the T-70s only left the fleet by getting killed. They were being used as the light recon armor throughout the 1943 fighting, there were plenty of them at Kursk, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Ok Sept report for 2SS 3SS and 5SS refers to the retreat to cross the river Dneiper, so I imagine that you are right and they are re-equipped as soon as they draw breath after crossing the river. But confirms use of mixed tank and StuG divisions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Some more numbers but again the info details that latter period, still might help. According to Jentz in November 43 25th Pz Div had only the II Abteilung in it's Pz Rgt 9 - four compnaies equipped with 93 PzIV and 8 command tanks. No indication what it had before. Jentz appears to have no info on 3rd SS Pz Div. Pz ABt 5 is sent to the front at this time and in Oct 43 had 42 Stug, 3 command AFVs organised into three compnaies. Pz Abt 7 and 8 appear in NOv43 both with 42 Stug in three compnaies in each. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Here's a thread with a sketch map, video clip (Elefant, Maultier, Schwarze Tod in battle), NARA citations for a German AAR, etc. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=124395 Covered here in THE FIELD ARTILLERY JOURNAL article from 1944 http://tinyurl.com/5upbat Bio of German 275th ID CO http://www.bridgend-powcamp.fsnet.co.uk/General%20der%20Artillerie%20Anton%20von%20Bechtolsheim.htm Tried Red Army Studies several times, but couldn't access it. That would certainly have some valuable materials. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 GeorgeC - on the 25th PD, it really wasn't engaged in the period I am focused on. There are clear reports on its first use against Vatutin's breakout from Kiev a month later and farther north. Moreover, its trucked infantry elements arrived first and were thrown into the battle before the tanks had detrained and caught up with them, with pretty disasterous consequences. They were green, as a new build, and panicked on their first confrontation with Russian tanks. After that blooding they got better, as their tanks arrived and 509th lent them a Tiger company on top of their full strength Pz IV battalion, and in that fashion they participated in Manstein's whole series of counterattacks around Zhitomir. But that is all the second half of the Kiev campaign (which I have a scenario pack on already, nearly done - shameless plug), not the Krivoi Rog fight a month earlier and hundreds of miles to the south. John - yeah I've seen those. The Elephant clip is of some interest, most of the rest isn't. The high level description jumps erratically from Konev - Krivoi Rog to the Dnepr crossing offensive by 3rd Ukrainian Front much farther east within the same paragraph, which is a bit like conflating the battle of the bulge with Nordwind - nobody seems to be able to concentrate on the actual decisive fighting for more than 2 connected sentences. I can get that much from Ziemke, which isn't saying anything. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 JasonC, Red Army Studies may be down, but the Internet Wayback Machine isn't. Redwolf and JonS pulled one of those monster German bred rabbits out of a hat to give you what's at the link. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=83409 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brecourt Manor Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Hello JasonC, I recently finished reading "Soldiers of Destruction" by Charles Sydnor which is a unit history of the SSTK. While there isn't a ton of info on the OOB there are quite a few references listed at the bottom of the pages that deal with this time period. I could post the information if you are still looking for data. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 Nah, there is nothing worthwhile in SOD. What there is I've read, and it is worthless signal magazine dreck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brecourt Manor Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Nah, there is nothing worthwhile in SOD. What there is I've read, and it is worthless signal magazine dreck. OK. I've become quite interested in SSTK, can you recommend a good read? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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