TCP/IP Realtime Impressions

[Taki]

So i played a QB today. I was very excited about how its gonna be with 1.06 and played a Scenario a Guy built and wanted to playtest it.

He used a Modified Airfield map with 2 Obj. Worth 500 Points. You also would get 500 Extrapoints if you destroy 75% of the enemy Forces. Game was RedvsRed

Well. I started with about 3 Platoons of Infantry 5 Mortar barrages and about 2 RPG Teams. I had 3 T-55MV versus his T-62MV. Therefore he had lesser Infantry and lesser BMP then me.

i worked out a Gameplan on what i would do similar to CMx1. I was a good player in CMx1. So after 10 Minutes of Setting up we started.

After 5 Minutes i quit. Tryed to take the Key Locations and all of my 3 T-55MV where burning unable to spot the Enemy. Even on 100m and right into the Direction i was looking my Tank didnt spot him in Time and shot him. Greatest Problem with playing a balanced Game Online is that you can just Guess about Reaction Times of Tanks, Spotting Systems, Armour Values, Bullettype and such things even when you read the manual twice or more.

Go with "1 Shot one Kill on every Tank" and you are on the Right side. I lost all my T-55MV because the performed so bad in Spotting. I had the Key Locations and everything was working as planned but enemy always spotted me first and killed me.

So here is a Summary of the Greates Problems i found:

- To much 1 Shot 1 Kill, even Hig Tec Firecontrolsystems should use more then 1 Shot on an enemy Tank bevore they kill it.

- No Clue on Armourvalues, Gun Performance, Tank Reaction Times, Spotting Times etc.

- No WeGo TCP/IP, the Game is more Fast Pacet in Modern Scenario. So you have to go faster then in WW2 Sim. The Unpausable gameplay is doing the Rest on Confusing you and you cant Execute any GAmeplan on Scenarios greater then a Company.

- Lag of Sim on Secondary Tank Equipment like Laser Warningsystem and such things. In CmX1 i had the Feeling that every System in a Tank (Radio,Gyrostabs etc.) had an outcome on the Overall Tankperformance. In CmX2 i dont have that Feeling or at least any insights on if there are any and what they are doing.

- buying with Pointsystem isnt in the Game for QB so far. It was great to have a Pointvalue for Every Unit in the Game with CMx1 and it was well balanced. That is what im missing in CMx2.

So will all that mentioned above the most Scenarios are peremptory bevore they really begun.

Its like a Head to Head Cowboy Duell. The one who Fires First kills the Enemy. And after your Tanks are down (and you dont have Javs) its just a matter of time.

[Chelco]

I don't know about the spotting system, but the majority of the maps available for CMSF are just too small for balanced modern tank duels.

[Taki]

Does anyone have a Site on where i can found out more about the Diffrent Modern Tank Setups and where they are diffrence?

The Handbook falls a Bit Short there. Like "What is Contact ERA" and such things.

So can anyone Link a Site where the Equipment of Modern Tanks and a LIst of it what this and that tank have are explained?

And another Question. Is there a Real Penetration Modell on Tanks and is the Exact Position of an Impact Point Calculated (like hitting the ERA Armour Plates with Heat) or isnt there one just Impact Points like "Side, Rear, Front"?

I know that lots of things are kept secret. But there also should be a lot of values to Estimate about and values that are written somewhere and how well X Gun performs against Y Types of Armour.

[ February 14, 2008, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Taki ]

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

What was your gameplan, Taki?

I would like to learn from your mistakes

Were the T55s unbuttoned? Did you try to rush the T62 or did yopu try to ambush it?

[Taki]

I didnt try to Ambush them or Rush them. I took the Key Locations on that Map and waited for Tanks to pass. Same with another Tank wich was some Kind of "Hull Down" facing right into the Direction where the Enemy was expected.

Guns perform too good for my Taste. Its 1 Shot 1 Kill if you got that Sabot Rounds. Fireaccuracy = too good spotting sytems = to bad

[panzermartin]

Armor duels feel like bicycles fighting with uber laser beams. No chance to survive at all. Still can't understand the lack of really big maps for

this kind of scenarios. Is the editor lag to blame?

Guess we have to wait till WW2 version comes out. Much more fun with the rather inaccurate panzers and shermans even at ranges down to 500m.

[Chelco]

Originally posted by Taki:

Guns perform too good for my Taste. Its 1 Shot 1 Kill if you got that Sabot Rounds. Fireaccuracy = too good spotting sytems = to bad

With all due respect, Taki (not trying to be an smart ass or picking up a fight): welcome to modern tank warfare!

CMSF maps are too small for modern tank battles.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Taki]

@Chelco: Even with that in Mind it feels to accurate. i cant see any diffrences on Spotting TIme or accuracy with diffrent Daytimes, Range, Optics, Hull down and so on.

I read some Reports that even Experienced Tank Crews took their Time with Leopard A6 to Hit and Enemy Tank. Even with the Laser Rangefinders Firecontrol Systems, Gyro Stabs and Target Computers.

But i guess its a Simulation Probem too. With CmX1 WW2 Scenario it was enough to Simulate Diffrent Types of Ammo, Gun Performances and Good/Medium/Bad optics and armour.

On CMx2 you have to SIM that whole things mentioned above and as it is right now i got the feeling that some things arent simulated right now.

[Chelco]

Until somebody posts better data, here is some info from "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army", by David Isby. It is a book published in 1981 and is about the Soviet army, so I don't know how much it applies to the equipment seen in CMSF (maybe not much). But anyway, just to continue the conversation.

T-55 Main Battle Tank

Gun: 100mm D-10T2S

Max rate of fire (theoretical): 7 rpm

Max rate of fire (actual): 3-4 rpm

Max range of fire (direct fire): 2800m (APDS), 2200m (HEAT), 2200m (APHE), 2200m (Frag-HE)

Effective range: 1080 (APHE), 900m (HEAT), 1200-1300 (APDS)

Today, despite its simplicity, ruggedness and mobility, the T-54/55 series is at a disadvantage compared to more recent designs. They are cramped, often "brew up" if hit, have a springy suspension that creates crew fatigue, are tiring to drive, shed tracks and are prone to engine overheating. They lack air conditioning and are much less effective in desert conditions. The 100mm D-10 series gun lacks long range accuracy and armour penetration. Its rate of fire is low and its optics are inadequate except at close range. Many foreign users of the T-54/55 series are seeking to correct these deficiencies. The Soviets have also modified and retrofitted equipment to their T-54/55s so that, for all their limitations, they are still important and viable weapon systems.

Main armament

Developed from a naval gun during WWII, the D-10 series of tank guns is identical to the BS-3 AT and KS-19 AA guns, and all fire the same fixed ammunition. All lack a muzzle brake and have horizontal sliding-wedge breech blocks, hydraulic recoil buffers, and hydropneumatic recuperators. The D-10T on the early T-54 has no stabilisation or bore evacuator and is used with the TSh2-22 sight. The T-54A's D-10TG was stabilised in the vertical plane and had the TSh2A-22 sight. The D-10T2S on all subsequent versions is stabilised in two planes and is used with the TSh2B-22 and TSh2-32 sights.

The basic WWII vintage 100mm round was the BR-412 APHE (considered an AP-T round by some sources because of its small HE charge and tracer shoe). In the mid 1950s it was replaced by the BR-412B and BR-412D APHE/AP-T rounds with the DBR-2 base detonating fuze. While adequate in comparison with their foreign contemporaries, these rounds lacked penetration against more recent tanks. In 1968 the HVAPDS-T round was introduced, and became the main anti-tank ammunition. HEAT rounds were introduced in the 1950s. Soft targets are engaged with the OF-412 Frag-HE round. The Chinese and the Czechs have developed their own 100mm ammunition, and the Czech shells are reportedly superior to the equivalent Soviet rounds.

Weapons effectiveness and combat usage

Altough the 100mm gun has been in service for over 35 years and the US Army has had test examples for years, accuracy data on the D-10 remain sparse and general, and hit probability estimates must be treated as being even more approximate than usual

500m 1000m 1500m 2000m 2500m

BR-412 APC-T 0% 50% 33% 8% 4%

BK-5M 84% 43% 25% 2% -

Soviet "textbook" estimates of the 100mm gun's accuracy are much higher. Theoretically, a gun using a BR-412B APHE round against a halted enemy tank 2.7m high and 3.6m long should have a 77% chance of hitting its target at 1800m range. Actual accuracy would doubtless be much less in combat conditions.

Armour penetration data (mm at 0degrees obliquity) are better known:

Range

--------------------------------------------------------------

Ammunition 500m 1000m 1500m 2000m

BR-412 APC-T 155 135 117 100

BM-6 HVAPDS - 264 - 237

BK-5M HEAT 380mm at any range

BR-412B APC-T - 171 - 146

BR-412D APC-T - 175 - 156

I'll post the data for the T-62 later today. And I will fix the tables.

[M1A1TC]

Back in the day when I was in Armor school at Ft. Knox, we were taught that the tank survivability is 30 seconds from the start of the engagement. I have done many gunneries over the years, and I see how that would be true. We are always taught one shot-one kill, especially the first one.

[DzrtFox]

This is something I've really had to get used to in Shock Force. Basically 90% or so of my wargaming experience has been World War II games, so liking this game required a bit of a paradigm shift in my thinking and the adoption of some new tactics.

I am still looking forward to seeing this engine in World War II, but for now this is something new and different, which is always a good thing...

[DzrtFox]

Originally posted by Taki:

Does anyone have a Site on where i can found out more about the Diffrent Modern Tank Setups and where they are diffrence?

Although it may not be as technical as some people on here may like, I always find Wikipedia a fascinating place to read up on tanks (and a lot of other things as well).

For example, here's the Wikipedia entry on the T-72... T-72 Info There are so many interesting links from there you could read for hours...

[gibsonm]

Well if you want complete information subscribe to Janes.

That’s a mere:

A$3,680.00 per year for “Armour and Artillery”

A$3,080.00 per year for “Armour and Artillery Upgrades”

A$3,300.00 per year for “Infantry Weapons”

So for about A$10,000.00 per year you can get the information that you are after (as long as its not classified).

As others have said Tk gunnery in CM:SF is skewed because of the extremely short ranges typically used.

Shooting under 1,000m is a no brainer and will result in “one shot, one kill” for almost everything (even your relatively speaking prehistoric T-55’s).

Set the range envelope to 2,500m - 3,500m and then you will start to see engagements similar to what you saw at say 1,200m for CMAK.

In my Army you don’t even qualify as a Tk gunner unless you achieve a score of higher than 95% at 1,500m during your course (and that’s against a variety of targets, not just a static piece of plate).