Rescue v4 Tactics Discussion

[JohnO]

I finished playing the scenario Rescue v4 with a friend of mine and it was a very good battle. However we were talking and I decide to post a question to the Patton's out there

Here is the situation briefing:

Our RCT main effort is engaged in clearing operations to the north of AR RIBAT. In the past week enemy fighters supported by combatants have been stepping up ambushes on our convoys travelling along Highway 5.

The S2 states that there is a hard core of around 40 experienced and well-armed Chechen fighters co-ordinating this activity.

At 0645Hrs this morning the Battalion CP received a radio message from Timberwolf (SBCT Battalion CO) that the supply convoy he had been travelling with had been attacked by an IED. This attack had been followed up by heavy and sustained small arms, MG and RPG fire from the surrounding buildings. Currently Timberwolf is now in defence positions in a small farm 100m NE of Blue 3 on Highway 5.

1st Platoon (2 rifle teams and 3 Strykers), designated as the Quick Reaction Force (QRF), has been tasked to immediately make contact with Timberwolf at their position at Blue 3. They are enroute heading north up Highway 5.

2nd Platoon (3 rifle teams and 4 Strykers) are following up on Highway 5, heading north, and should be in this sector in ten minutes to assist 1st Platoon.

If required, further support from 'Alpha' Team (2 Abrams and 2 Mech Rifle platoons with 8 x BIFV) is available at the discretion of the regimental commander. Their avenue of approach will from the south along RED ROUTE; Highway 5 and AL HADI.

This sector is a sprawling suburban type built up area densely populated by civilians. Weather conditions are expected to be good with a light SW wind. Temperatures are expected to be hot with ground conditions very dry.

Your mission has two elements:

Make contact with Timberwolf and extricate the survivors.

Secure Highway 5 from any further hostile threat.

The desired endstate is the safe extrication of Timberwolf and the elimination of any enemy threat to travel along Highway 5.

Using the map I'm providing below, how would you conduct this rescue?

[Webwing]

Good Idea!

I love this scenario. Beautiful terrain, layout, details and the battle itself is fantastic.

I'm curious to see your plan JohnO!

I'm not posting mine. Unless you are having a hard time achieving a Total Defeat.

[JohnO]

Ok, will post my map and what I was trying to do and what I think it should have in the scenario. As soon as I get to work to do that.

[JohnO]

Ok, as Webwing wouldn’t post what he did until I post what I did. And so begins the story of my attempt to win this scenario Rescue v4. First I want to say that this scenario was great but I think some things need to be added for the Blue player to win. Well at least for me to win.

Oh, I also want to say that I’m no Patton and this is my plan.

Lets start with the Bn CDR and the ragtag group that survive the ambush and made it to the buildings, which I will call them “Alamo” so when I mention “Alamo” that is what I’m taking about.

At the initial setup at the Alamo, I placed the Bn CDR and his RTO on the second story roof facing south, and place the other HQ Plt LDR and his RTO on the one story roof facing southwest toward ambush site 1 (see map). The other US element, remain on the first floor facing towards east towards the group of building at ambush site 3 (see map).

The QRF (3 Stryker’s, 2x squads and a Plt Ldr) looking at the map I decide to use Route 1 instead of Route 2 or 3. Route 2 to me was to open but it did have the fastest way to get to the Alamo, Route 3 was somewhat to me better but still was to open of an area for my taste.

Well after setting up the formations for the Stryker’s to move out and as soon as I cross the LD/LC I lost one Stryker (see map) and everyone onboard except for one lucky soldier. Let me explain what I did for formation of the Stryker’s. I had the lead Stryker move out which had one of the squads on board follow by the Plt Ldr Stryker and then by the third Stryker carrying the other squad. Well as I explain I lost the lead Stryker from RPG fire. My opponent said that three RPGs fired at that lead Stryker and knocked it out along with the crew and all of the squad except for one soldier who bailed out and run and hit the deck. When the lead Stryker got hit, I moved the other two remaining Stryker’s to protect the remaining soldier hoping that there would be other survivors. But there was none except for that one soldier. After returning fire to the location of that lone RPG and taking it out and knowing how easy it was for an RPG to take out a Stryker it wasn’t going to be easy.

Well while this was going on with the QRF, the Bn CDR called for arty fire but was told “Sorry sir, no arty” well what about airstrike, “Um sorry sir again no airstrikes, but we do have just two tubes of mortars for you to play with” what!!!! Where in the hell is my arty and airstrike soldier!!!

With just two tubes of 120mm mortars the Bn CDR did managed to call in an emergency fire mission and to be told that it would take six minutes if I’m lucky for the first round to go down range. Well that lasted for about two minutes when there was to much firepower being thrown at the Alamo and the elements there was always pinned down and couldn’t even return fire or try to call for a fire mission with just “TWO TUBES OF MORTAR”.

With the QRF (just two Stryker’s remaining) fighting its way through Route 1 and the Alamo was getting reduced down to just the Bn CDR and his RTO remaining alive from all the firepower being thrown at it be the enemy. The next turn was when I realized that it was useless to keep going on. The reinforcements never showed up. The Alamo was getting overrun by the bad guys on the next turn. So I talked to my opponent and select “Ceasefire” which by the way seems to not work.

Here are some things that I think needs to be added or revised and that is for a Bn CDR not having arty or air support is crazy. It should be included and the QRF with just three Stryker’s and two squads only is also crazy. A QRF should be a full Plt strength which consist of four (4) Stryker’s – two (2) Stryker AGL and two (2) Stryker HMG, Plt Ldr and four (4) rifle squads.

So now lets begin with the Armchair Generals debate on how it should of been fought

JohnO

[Webwing]

JohnO,

Cool!

Reading your AAR (not just a general plan) it seems very sound your course of action.

I have to give this scenario another try. Will tell you how it went.

Too much stuff to do, not enough time...

[JohnO]

Webwing, remember I didn't play this scenario against the AI scripted plan I played it against a human player so the results will be different. Looking forward to your plan.

Going to do another scenario Viper Pass. Stay tune on what I plan and how it worked.

JohnO

[JohnO]

Is there nobody out there who has played this scenario? I figured there would be someone who would discuss this scenario on how to win this thing.

JohnO

[Webwing]

Originally posted by JohnO:

Is there nobody out there who has played this scenario? I figured there would be someone who would discuss this scenario on how to win this thing.

JohnO

I have spent most of the time with the editor...

But I guess playing this scenario against a human, or any scenario for that matter, one would have to do it in a completely different way.

I only play single player against the AI so not sure it would help you anyway.

[JohnO]

Either way I figure there would be some players who have played it and want to say how they did it

Just curious on how they plan it and if it worked or does most players just jump right in with out a plan and just wing it on the go

JohnO

[Bil Hardenberger]

John, I can tell you how to win from the Red side if you like.

Bil

[JohnO]

No Thanks. Oh, by the way now your telling me that it was you who score a perfect 100 playing Chance Encounter CM. I've already lost even before I started the game with you

[SlapHappy]

*****************SPOILERS*******************

JohnO

Not that it might matter to you and your expectations for the scenario......but.....

When I played the mission as BLUE, SP, in real-time, the "Rescue" targets were wiped out a long time before I got to the "Alamo" as you are referring to it. Despite that, I was able to achieve a complete victory by recapturing the area and wiping out most of the enemy combatants.

Personally, I don't know how one would go about actually effecting a clean rescue of those troops based on the limitations placed on you in the scenario.......

[DaveDash]

-please delete-

[ December 04, 2007, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: DaveDash ]

[DaveDash]

Here was my attack plan based on your map:

PHASE 1 (RED): 1st Platoon Secure overwatch positions.

PHASE 2 (GREEN): 2nd Platoon to move through 1st Platoons secured positions and clean out the town, taking overwatch positions over the town and eliminate as many enemies as possible

PHASE 3 (BLUE): 1st Platoon to move up and re-inforce 2nd Platoons position, and provide overwatch for 2nd Platoon to gain footholds around the target building.

The reason for going up the eastern side was simple:

1) Good engagement ranges where my forces are superior.

2) Lack of third platoon to do any 'pinning' work. Seemed better to be to drive what limited forces I had together as a unit.

3) Seemed to be a path of much less resistance.

4) Do what the enemy (designer) least expects you to.

Im currently finishing up PHASE 2 with no vehicles lost, but 1st Platoon has lost about 10 men, which is far too many in my books, and 2nd Platoon has lost about 3.

PHASE 1

1:39: Infantry moved up to take overwatch positions at green 3 and house on other side of the road. Phase 1 attack plan, clear big building overwatching both roads. 1st Battalion HQ radios in and reports mortar landing on their position. All supporting units with them have seemingly dissappeared from the building, routed or surrended HQ doesn't know. They are left by their own.

1:37 RPG fire opens up on trapped units, destroying one HUMVEE and the stranded Stryker. Styker Command unit escapes into building.

1:36: Rifle squads 1 & 2 move to take target buildings. Even though we know the enemy is there, they have maintained fire discipline so far. Wishing for a third squad. Speed is essential as our guys are in danger, but there is no use getting everyone killed.

1:35: 1st Platoon Command Stryker races forward up the road to try and lure enemy fire. It runs over an IED which was detonated slightly too early, the speed of the Stryker saving it. However it took wheel damage, and painfully slowly limps back to safety. Still no enemy fire, perhaps Objective Building A is empty? Stranded 1st Battalion CO unit spot enemy platoon approaching from the palmed area to the south of their position, and radio in mortar fire to surpress and break up the attack. They are toast by themselves.

1:34 The attacking enemy platoon wound 1st Battalion CO, there are now only two U.S. troops able to fight and defend themselves at the Ambush site. The wounded Stryker limps back to safety and 1st Squad, hearing the gunfight in the distance, prepares to leapfrog forward. Objective building A must be cleared.

1:33 Radio silence from 1st Battalion HQ. Gunfighting can still be heard from the Ambush site however, so some U.S. troops must live to fight on. An RPG is fired at 1st Squad as they enter their Stryker and they dive for cover. No one seems to have seen where it came from.

1:32 1st Squad scramble into their Stryker to continue the attack on Objective Building A, loading two wounded from the RPG attack into the Stryker in the process. 2nd Squad engage enemy units but the trained guriellas dissappear from view, not wanting to get engaged in a firefight with U.S. forces at long range. Fighting can still be heard at the ambush site.

1:30 U.S. mortar fire lands erratically around the attacking enemy forces, of which there appear to be many. 1st Squad moves to clear a nearby building to establish a new forward base, 2nd squat spot technicals moving troops to better defensive positions and engage them.

1:29 Some U.S. forces from 1st squad foolishly try to run around the FRONT of the building they are assaulting, and enemy units from around Objective Building A open up and unleash hell. A hail of RPGs of bullet fire cuts down the three exposed members of 1st squad and reduces their squad to 4 men, however, with their positions now revealed the overwatch Strykers and 2nd squad unload their firepower on the enemies. Most are exposed on rooftops and are cut down.

1:27 1st Squad report they are having trouble breaching the rear of the building - it appears to be barricaded. Command moves Strykers up in front of the building to provide covering fire and pop smoke so 1st Squad can breach the exposed front. Most of the enemy units around Objective Building A seem to have been cut down, but some may yet remain.

1:26 There is silence from the Ambush Site, but no matter, the bodies of the U.S. soldiers must be recovered and survivors, if any, checked for. 1st Squad under the cover of smoke succesfully clears its building overlooking Objective Building A. 2nd squad prepares to assault Objective building A to gain a clear overwatch position over the battlefield. 2nd Platoon arrives on the scene.

1:24 2nd squad rearms and equips in it's Stryker, not before taking a casualty from an AK burst at over 400m. The enemy seems to be excellent marksmen

1:21 2nd Squad gains objective building A. 2nd Platoon move through the safety of the buildings to the eastern road and prepare to move through 1st Platoons position. No way are they crossing that bridge, especially with than ominous looking technical parked on the opposing end.

1:19 2nd Squad is hit by an RPG from the buildings to the north, and takes 3 wounded, severly decreasing their effectiveness.

1:14 Shots are exchanged across the rooftops of the cityscape, with insurgent forces firing and hiding, making it difficult for U.S. forces to engage them.

1:08 2nd Platoon finally move through 1st Platoons position, completing Phase 1 and beginning Phase 2.

PHASE 2

1:07 2nd Platoon, 1st Squad move to take Objective Building B which will enable them to provide overwatch and covering fire for the rest of 2nd Platoon. Enroute to their objective building however 3 members of the squad are badly wounded by a lone AK gunmen firing at them from down an alley. Their Stryker providing overwatch cannot seem to get a bead on the assaliant.

1:06 2nd Platoon, 1st Squad gains a foothold in the building, setting up a CCP inside the botton floor. They spot an ATGM team in the neighbouring building and quickly dispatch them.

1:05 2nd Platoon's other Strykers move up to better support 2nd Platoon, 1st Squad. The soldiers move to the roof to take a peak around while the HQ element moves nearby to report enemy positions. 2nd Platoon, 1st Squad takes heavy enemy fire from all directions once on the roof and is pinned down. Supporting Stryker elements seem confused as to where enemy fire is coming from and do nothing to surpress them. There appears to be some hesitation due to insurgents using civilians and shields.

..More to come...

[ December 04, 2007, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: DaveDash ]

[JohnO]

Interesting DaveDash, if the Bn Co had some arty he could of kept most of the enemy from trying to take the ambush site. Going to try Hammertime and do a write up on it. One thing I notice was that if the ambush site gets overrun then you switch to the other mission which is to keep Hwy 5 open. But I could be wrong on that.

[DaveDash]

Well I went back and finished it - total U.S. victory. 10 U.S. KIA, 16 wounded, 1 armoured vehicle lost (the ambushed stryker).

After taking up positions in the north east I was lucky enough to get 1st and 2nd mech reinforcements, along with the two tanks. I moved 1st mech up along highway 5 bypassing the bridge area and cleared out the ambush area, 2nd mech and the two tanks demolished the area north of the bridge with HE, killing most of the enemy there. The tanks drew some RPG fire and the rest of the attacking force made short work of any RPGers.

There were a TON of enemy forces IN the ambush site that didnt stand a chance against Bradley HE. Perhaps in future versions of the scenario there should be less of these guys, or they should take positions surrounding the ambush site instead. I mean they know your ambushed men arn't going anywhere, and while your guys are still alive there you may be prone to make mistakes trying to rescue them alive and in time.

[ December 05, 2007, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: DaveDash ]

[JohnO]

George Mc will back from vacation on Dec 9th so we can make our recomandations on changes to the scenario.

JohnO

[George MC]

Hi All

Thanks for all the above comments and post - leave you alone JohnO and look what ye get up to

I've enjoyed reading all the comments and posts about the scenario, it's all very appreciated.

I'm just about to fly back to the UK from my hols ice climbing (some brutally cold weather for most of the trip which makes the ice bloody brttile and scary to climb)in Canada. Just been reading all the posts - jings you guys have been busy! I'll get onto them when I get back.

Looks like the main issues are:

survivability of the trapped guys

arty/air support

doors (thought I'd done them but I'll check again)

OFOR experience - from what I mind there are only a few crack gusy (Chechen fighters) the others should pretty much be green/conscript although all have pretty high fanatci levels.

mission objectives - I can answer this one - secure the ambush area with (hopefully) alive guys , then secure the main highway, two missions I guess.

I'll post more when I get back to Scotland and come out of my soon to come jet lag!

[DaveDash]

Thanks very much for the reply George.

Just to say again, I think probably the main two things that I'd suggest to be improved in future versions are

1) Have the OPFOR assaulting the ambush site disperse into buildings, giving the impression of a heavy battle and a sense of urgency to rescue your guys.

2) Doors/Buildings. Some of the buildings in the game (and this is probably more a CM:SF fault than a designer fault) were just infuriating to navigate. The big building in the North West side of town overlooking the ambush site for example, my guys just spread out on the rooftops of the adjacent buildings and would not move from that spot.

Enjoy your trip

[Webwing]

I finally did it successfully. Twice!!! I feel like I'm getting a lot better at this game. The most enjoyable thing is that using sound real world tactics pay (apart from the bugs of course).

I don't agree with the arty support. Didn't have the buildings issue either.

But never got to rescue the guys alive.

Although the mission starts on a frenetic rhythm I decided not to hurry things. Got my strykers only with their noses showing from the corners of buildings and walls, sometimes venturing a bit further to give support to the troops.

--

[JohnO]

I disagree, the Bn Cdr should have arty support and the way you explain on how you just fought the battle goes against what a QRF is suppose to do. You sacrifice the live of those in the ambush site by being to cautious in your tactics. Granted it just a game but if the scenario is about a QRF trying to get to the ambush site and the followed up forces ten minutes later. Then why build a scenario when the player will not fight the battle the way it is meant to be. Again, I know its just a game

[DaveDash]

QRF just means first on the scene, doesn't mean suicidal. Besides, I "roleplayed" a bit and went relatiely fast until there was "radio silence" from the Ambush Site, then my guys were a bit more cautious.

Going in there without arty support with a QRF force is a big risk to begin with, I don't think anyone in the U.S. Army would blindly charge in there even with their guys getting shot up.

[JohnO]

I'm not disagreeing and I'm not advocating to "Charge of the Light Brigade into the guns of the enemy" I'm just saying how can you design a scenario for what it is suppose to do when the player doesn't react as train military officers would, thats all.

I know what the primary purpose of a QRF is and that is to undertake counter-attack and counter-penetration tasks, in addition to cordons and searches, sweeps and clearances, vehicle and personnel checks, and convoy protection.

Maybe I'm putting more into this when I should be building a scenario

[DaveDash]

Yeah that's why I suggested the guys attacking the ambushed U.S. forces hang bang in the buildings and just keep them pinned. That way the U.S. guys don't die early on and there is still that sense of urgency, and also, the bad guys dont just all pile in one building and die to Bradley HE.

[JohnO]

yep, I agree, after talking to some of the officers here at CGSC, I stand corrected, if the Plt Ldr knows that the situation is that the enemy has allot of firepower and IEDs out there he would be cautious enough not to get his people killed. Also after talking to them, I have come up with a good scenario