Nvidia users, immediate testing required

[Huntarr]

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=45174&hl=combat+mission

Get over there and help out

[Battlefront.com]

Actually, there is little technical difference between running through DirectX or OpenGL from our standpoint. Both are APIs that Charles makes calls two, each in turn has to be explicitly supported by the card/driver being run on. So if there is a problem with one, there is a problem with the other. There are plenty of problems with DirectX and various cards/drivers. In fact there was just a rather substantial set of DirectX fixes released by nVidia.

However, there are two differences between OpenGL and DirectX... Microsoft and the mass of gaming. When nVidia has a problem with DirectX, they get the full weight of both on their shoulders pretty quickly. OpenGL is not backed by a Microsoft, so right there the pressure is less. The number of OpenGL games is also smaller, therefore less pressure there too.

The problem for us is we don't want to be locked into Windows development. Since DirectX is Windows only, we went with OpenGL. I think there is also more control in the hands of the developer with OpenGL than DirectX, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Regardless, we chose OpenGL deliberately and with very good reasons behind that decision. It's still the right decision and therefore we have to fight our way clear of the current nVidia problems.

Steve

[c3k]

Steve,

Thanks for working this complex issue. I bought two sets of CM:SF, pre-ordered, solely because of your reputation for support. Yours is the ONLY company from which I would do this. Every other game I've ever purchased first had to pass muster through various reviews before I'd spend a dollar on it.

We're frustrated, but expectantly hopeful.

You can quote that.

Thanks,

Ken

P.S. Now get back to work!

[Battlefront.com]

That's a good thread you guys have going there at nVidia. Keeping it polite and to the point... good

I'll just remind you guys that there are some things we can do to get performance to increase. I know this because we already have in v1.04, though we're redoing some of it today. It's all about balancing the priorities of what is shown on the screen. So we're going to change some of those priorities around to get better performance for what we hope is not a step backwards in terms of graphics quality. We'll keep you posted!

Beyond this, however, is the problem that high end nVidia cards on high end systems are overall seeing poorer performance than they should be when compared against ATI and older nVidia cards on slower systems.

This is what concerns us... if CM's code were soley to blame then people with slower systems would not be getting good or better performance than the peopel with better setups. We also wouldn't be seeing such wild differences between people using the same card, same settings, and the same scenario on a similar system (10fps vs. 25fps for example). So there must be something that is wrong with these nVidia cards or drivers. We might be donig something that makes them worse, but fundamentally we aren't causing the problem itself. We're very sure of that.

Steve

[peleprodigy]

"Er... no. That's not how it works. No developer designs his game to work around a buggy product. Developers instead design their games around APIs that are supposed to work on all cards in all situations."

I think most developers take into account testing their games on current generation hardware before releasing them. Hopefully your community solves your problem for you.

[peleprodigy]

"You got lucky with the other games, unlucky with CM. Other 8800 users got lucky with all of them. Go figure."

No, just a well maintained, modern system. Never needed luck to run a game...is that the official corporate solution from Battlefront on problems with Sh**ck Force? This will be a hit on the game forums.

[ September 13, 2007, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: peleprodigy ]

[Battlefront.com]

peleprodigy,

No, just a well maintained, modern system. Never needed luck to run a game...is that the official corporate solution from Battlefront on problems with Sh**ck Force? This will be a hit on the game forums.

It's stuff like this that makes you come off sounding like a "jerk" or "thick headed". Let's try to break it down for you...

Do you understand that OTHER 8800 users have not had the problem free experience you have had up until CM:SF? Yes or no? Do you understand that OTHER 8800 users are playing CM:SF without the sort of slowdown you are experiencing? Yes or no? Haven't I repeatedly stated that we are trying VERY hard to figure out where the problem is so we can work around it? Yes or no?

If you answered NO to any of these questions then you are "thick headed" since the situation has been explained so thoroughly that you can't possibly not understand what is going on. If you answer "yes" to any of these then you are just being a "jerk" since there is no point acting like you are if you know the facts except to be deliberately offensive. You could change the perception if you answer "yes" to all three and started acting like you understand what is going on here.

The truth is that if nVidia didn't have a buggy product (fact) there would be no reason why we have to work our tails off to figure out ways around these problems (fact). That we have to do this is a sad reality for us developers and therefore we are doing all that we can to fix the problem. Unfortunately we can't predict when that will happen nor how well the workaround will be.

Now, I will tell you this flat out... we would not have delayed CM's launch even if we were aware of this problem before we shipped. We would simply have put a disclaimer and that we would fix the problems as soon as we can or they would be fixed by nVidia as soon as they decided to do so. The vast majority of people aren't having this problem so delaying the game indefiniately would be irresponsible and self defeating.

Steve

[peleprodigy]

"Now, I will tell you this flat out... we would not have delayed CM's launch even if we were aware of this problem before we shipped. We would simply have put a disclaimer and that we would fix the problems as soon as we can or they would be fixed by nVidia as soon as they decided to do so."

That would have been great. i wouldn't have bought it if my system didn't software render the demo scenario so well.

It's weird that, as you state, other 8800 users are playing CM:SF without any sort of slowdown, yet you are certain that it is the fault of the card.

[Battlefront.com]

Oh, and I forgot this one:

peleprodigy,

I think most developers take into account testing their games on current generation hardware before releasing them.

I've said before that we had testers with 8800s and, unfortunately, they didn't have the problem and so we thought we were fine. In fact, this something I found in an email from mid July (i.e. before we shipped):

- the game is not very well optimized - (35 frames/s on Core 2 Duo & GF 8800 GTX in bigger misisons). Could it be in any way improved?

That was from one of our retail partners. So yeah... biggest complaint we had prior to shipping from an 8800 user was a framerate of 35+ on "bigger missions". Guess we should have thrown out the code and started over, eh?

Look, we are less happy about this situation than you are. We are working hard to get it fixed up. So can I ask a question? Why are you posting here because other than purposefully trying to be a pain in our asses, I can't figure out what you're contributing here. That you're upset that you're having problems? I got that the first one or two times you posted. The other 100+ snipes is a bit redudnant.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

peleprodigy,

That would have been great. i wouldn't have bought it if my system didn't software render the demo scenario so well.

As I said, we got "unlucky" in that the few 8800 testers we had didn't have a problem with the game. There's only so much testing we can do.

It's weird that, as you state, other 8800 users are playing CM:SF without any sort of slowdown, yet you are certain that it is the fault of the card.

Because that's how buggy drivers behave. Have you noticed how many people have fixed their problems by doing one thing and yet that same thing didn't work for someone else? Have you noticed the large number of such work arounds? Do you really think our code could be causing such random problems? If you do, then it's because you don't understand much about how software and hardware interact.

Combat Mission only has one base of code to work from. It makes the same exact calls on one card as any other card. No difference. So if the code is doing the same thing on EVERY system, yet some cards aren't behaving while other identical cards are, the fault obviously lies someplace other than our code. As I've said, there are things that our code could be doing to make matters worse for some people, but the fact is that if it was our code ALL users with an OpenGL card would be experiencing a problem, or at the very least all 8800 users would be. This is not the case so it is obviously not due to a fundamental problem on our end.

It really is that simple.

Steve

[ September 13, 2007, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[peleprodigy]

I keep posting because you feel the need to rebut my every comment Steve. If I am wrong, so be it.

No one knows what is causing the main problem, we all wish we did. I personally think it's a combination of game, operating system (xp sp2 specifically), and driver interactions. You think it has nothing at all to do with the game. Until the game is fixed, or until you have a specific bug fix request in to nvidia, I don't think either one of us has been proven to be 100% correct.

I will not post again so long as you don't quote another one of my posts with a rebuttal purporting to be fact, yet really containing as much conjecture as what I am posting.

It really is that simple.

[ September 14, 2007, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: peleprodigy ]

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by peleprodigy:

I will not post again...

WOOT!!

[peleprodigy]

what are you, a train engine? and 12?

[bflyblue]

I do a lot of OpenGL development (on Linux) so I know exactly how frustrating it is for developers when you code things to spec, and get different results not only on different hardware, but between different drivers on exactly the same hardware.

API's are there for a reason, but it feels like there are so many work-around in graphics drivers these days to get some games to work that it gets in the way of adhering to the spec for other applications.

The 8800 does things very differently in hardware compared to previous generations and requires far more complicated drivers. I get the feeling Nvidia rushed things, and it's going to take a long time for the new drivers to stabilise.

My 5c..

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by peleprodigy:

what are you, a train engine? and 12?

I aspire to your maturity - WOOT WOOT!

[kajones1644]

Tried the latest drivers with no improvement n frame rate on Allahs Fist. On smaller battles I do get good frame rate but the mouse response is a bit mushy. Like many I am running 8800GTS with 640mb. Doesnt stop me playing though.

[peleprodigy]

Originally posted by Melnibone:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by peleprodigy:

what are you, a train engine? and 12?

I aspire to your maturity - WOOT WOOT! </font>

[Dirtweasle]

Steve, in re the partner that early on advised that he was concerned when he was getting 30-ish FPS did it cause you at BFC to dig beneath the surface into why? I mean now, in 20/20 hindsight we see people getting a lot worse FPS and you know there are problems. I'd assume he was used to much better performance typically and so I wonder if you did anything back then? Did you record what his setting were, with CMSF and his 3D settings? I have to assume this person running the pre 1.03 enhanced textures, and so it is quite possible that with balanced or less demanded graphics setting a >50FPS shold be no big deal?

I know you are stating that there is a set of customers with GeForce 8800 cards are not having the problem, and I've searched the comments on the threads and the only ones that are saying they are OK have dialed back there CMSF settings.

Are there any customers that have an nvidia 8800 running CMSF with "better/better" or "best/best" settings? If so could you share your system information and the nVidia set-ups please?

[JohnO]

Not sure if this is where this goes but, I ran two scenarios with large maps which is Allah's Fist (2016 x 1184) and Bil's NTC (2000 x 1504). The First test was with the 3D options set at "Best", for Allah's Fist I got 20 FPS and for NTC I got 10FPS. Setting the 3D options to "Balance", I got for Allah's Fist 45FPS and for NTC I got 40FPS.

How are others testing the Frame Rates? Are you using the same map and at the same spot when testing? Are you posting the average when you do a 360 degree turn? Or are you posting what you see when you look at a certain direction? Are you testing in the open, forest, building terrains?

Has anybody tried using the FRAPS program and see what the average FPS is when you do a 360 degree turn to get the average?

Strange also is when I load Allah's Fist it took about two minutes to load but when I load Bil's NTC map it took about four minutes. Is it because of the elevations in the maps causing the load to be that slow? The reason I'm asking is Allah's Fist is mostly flat while Bil's NTC has some large mountains in it?

I have a P4 3GHz, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT SLI, Driver 163.67 windows XP Home Editon, NVIDA settings "application controlled" Resolution at 1680x1050 if anybody wanted to know.

JohnO

[Dirtweasle]

Hi John, I'm using FRAPS and the "allah" scenario.

...oddly enough with a similar P4 3.2 and a 6800GT I get good results with "Allah" too, yet with my fancy new rig and the 8800GTS 640 I get worse performance. That's what makes the whole thing such a pisser, yea?

[Sekra]

I get around 4-5 FPS in Allah's Fist when viewing the whole battlefield at Better/Better settings. Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 & (Asus) Gf 8800GTS 640mb. Smaller scenarios usually run better but sometimes they can stutter a bit too. Changing the settings to Balanced/Balanced gives a mostly playable FPS 95% of the time so I use that.

[mazex]

Sorry Rune - Installed the beta driver and I get 9 fps at startup of Allahs Fist. I got all the nvida hotfixes etc and the latest versions of all other dirvers on my system.

Specs (only tried it in XP):

Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 (@3.0Ghz - 1200Mhz FSB)

Asus Striker Extreme NForce680i SLI MB

Asus GeForce 8800GTX 768Mb

2 x 1Gb Corsair PC6400 XMS2 XTREME CAS4 @900Mhz 4-4-4-15 2,1 Volt

1 x RAPTOR 150GB + 2 x Raptor 74Gb (raid 0) + Hitatchi T7K500 320GB

Creative SB X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Professional

Dual boot - Windows XP SP2+ and Vista64 Ultimate

/Mazex

[mazex]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Because that's how buggy drivers behave. Have you noticed how many people have fixed their problems by doing one thing and yet that same thing didn't work for someone else? Have you noticed the large number of such work arounds? Do you really think our code could be causing such random problems? If you do, then it's because you don't understand much about how software and hardware interact.

Combat Mission only has one base of code to work from. It makes the same exact calls on one card as any other card. No difference. So if the code is doing the same thing on EVERY system, yet some cards aren't behaving while other identical cards are, the fault obviously lies someplace other than our code. As I've said, there are things that our code could be doing to make matters worse for some people, but the fact is that if it was our code ALL users with an OpenGL card would be experiencing a problem, or at the very least all 8800 users would be. This is not the case so it is obviously not due to a fundamental problem on our end.

It really is that simple.

Steve

Well Steve, I'm sorry but I get a bit annoyed here. I had an ATI card back in the good ole days and then it was the ATI drivers fault that the fog was not displayed correctly in CMx1. All other games ran perfectly with my X800 card. Now it's the Nvidia 8800 drivers fault that CMSF runs at single digit fps. All other games run like a charm. I work with software development too and blaming drivers may be OK for some weird card than nobody uses but regarding the Nvidia 8xxx line it can hardly be denied that it's the most popular card out there, and it has been so for almost a year! Got mine in november last year.

When the most popular card on the market behaves weird in a game it's something that should have been fixed in the beta phase, according to me at least! It does not matter if there is something that is not working as expected according to the OGL specs, all the other developers have worked around it in that case... Why does almost all other games run at 50+ fps on my rig on maximum settings (excluding FSX)? Keep on looking for a fix but blaming the drivers will not get any sympathy from me at least (rather the opposite). If the 8xxx line was brand new and released AFTER CMSF it would maybe be valid to blame the drivers.

It's not like the graphics in CMSF are that bleeding edge either. Check out World in Conflict, it runs amazingly on my rig at maxed out settings and the number of polys rendered there are way higher than CMSF. Don't go blaming that you have more advanced AI than WiC etc as CMSF clearly runs OK on older cards etc.

Sorry for the harsh tone but I really think that this is your problem...

Regards /Mazex

[Cameroon]

Just a point, there's no way that the 8800 is the most popular card - it's far too expensive to be that. It may be the fastest card and the best card, but not most popular.

Otherwise, you've shot yourself in the foot with this argument:

Don't go blaming that you have more advanced AI than WiC etc as CMSF clearly runs OK on older cards etc.

If it isn't drivers, then it wouldn't run faster on older hardware. On top of that, on the 8800 based machines that they have they can't reproduce the horrid framerates. Whether it's a bug in the drivers - which it appears to be from those two facts alone - or it's a bug in the game, until they figure out why - they can't work around it.

Comparing it to other OpenGL games just isn't as useful. It's a valid point to say that the 8800 can chew up and spit out OpenGL or DirectX; but there is obviously some combination of factors in its use in CMSF that can trigger a massive bug in either the card or the OpenGL drivers for that card.

I've also been (and am on my own time) a software developer, remember, it doesn't do this on all the 8800s. It's a huge bug (whatever and wherever it is), but fixing or working around something that you can't reproduce on your end is not exactly easy.

[Cameroon]

I feel this might be relevant (from the Neverwinter Nights board at Bioware - NWN is OpenGL):

I've had a read through this thread and several others, but I haven't found a mention of my particular problem that started once I put the 8800gts in.

I don't get the blank screen, instead the game loads fine and the menu is there. However once I select New game (Or load game, multiplayer etc..) everything starts to lag. The swirling read clouds are going about [less than] 1fps.. Seriously. I when i actually start a game, it is completely unplayable. It is akin to trying to play a game with 2000ping (Which I do now about ).

I'm guessing this is also a driver issue, but I've tried several drivers to correct this problem, including the ones mentioned in this thread, and I'm completely outta ideas. I do not particularly want to put my old card back in as I also play Oblivion which is looking pretty damn sweet, not to mention the cost involved with getting this card.

While that's from a thread related to blank screen problems with the 8800, here's a thread completely about problems with the 8800 and there are a lot of similar problems to what has been experienced here: NWN: Nvidia 8800 There's a post in that thread linking to two additional threads about problems with the 8800s (or probably just G80 cards in general).

While most workarounds in those threads (if there are any) are likely fairly specific to that game; perhaps seeing additional symptoms can suggest a workaround for Battlefront.