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Nvidia users, immediate testing required


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I'll try and help out this every confusing situation we have here!

Best/Better Texture Quality setting, within CM, uses a special rendering tehnique that involves a lot more VRAM and processor power. If you have any problems with the middle to low settings, Best/Better (the two best settings) make framerates far worse. FAR worse. Night and day worse. Horribly worse. So the fact that people with 8800s are having really bad framerate problems in the middle to low range, Best/Better is going to be like a slideshow.

It would appear that there are three problems dogging nVidia people right now. The problem for us is that all the symptoms are identical (i.e. poor framerate). It's like seeing three cars with flat tires. Same end result, but one could be from a nail, one could be because someone slashed it, and the third because the idiot kid 2 houses down deflated the tire at night because he was board :D

What this means is you guys MUST keep in mind that different fixes are required for different problems, but because we don't know what the problems are we can't predict which fix will help which person.

1. Driver issues with their particular cards.

2. Defects with the cards and specific GPUs handling VRAM swapping.

3. Unknown reason for CM to drop into software rendering mode.

The latest driver seems to fix #1 outright for some people, offer #2 (ALT-TAB) as an option to improve framerate (perhaps only temporarily), and so far #3 seems to be completely untouched so far.

On top of this user settings, such as Vsynch and Better/Best, may also have radical impact on framerates far beyond what they do for others. Then there is the "normal" problems that the more complex a scenario is in terms of polygons, the greater the hit to the speed. Grass in particular chews up lots of polygons and therefore whacks speed pretty hard, though using lower Texture Quality settings will help fix that.

Thanks to everybody trying to help us figure this out. It's really frustrating because, for the most part, there isn't much we can do to fundamentally fix the problems you guys are having. However, v1.04 will likely fix a lot of things for people because Charles has made some underlying graphics rendering changes that better balance speed vs. quality beyond what the settings currently allow for.

Steve

[ September 11, 2007, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

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DW_8800_CMSF.TXT

Hardware -

Nvidia 8800 GTS, 640mb DDR3 RAM running driver version 6.14.11.6218 Forceware 162.18

Video BIOS version: 60.80.0a.00.02

8800 Settings -

Anistropic Filtering = App Control

Antialiasing - Gama correction = ON

Antialiasing - Mode = App Control

Antialiasing - Transparency = OFF

Conformant Texture Clamp = USE HARDWARE

Error Reporting = OFF

Extention Limit = OFF

Force Mipmaps = NONE

Multi-display = SINGLE DISPLAY PERFORMANCE MODE

Texture Filtering - Anistropic Sample optimization = OFF

Texture Filtering - NEgative LOD bias = ALLOW

Texture Filtering - Trilinear Optimization = ON

Threaded Optimization = Auto

Triple Buffering = OFF

Vertical sync = USE 3D APPLICATION Setting

CMSF settings -

Sound = ON

Display = Desktop

Vetical Sync = OFF

3D Model = Better

3D Texture = Better

Antialias / Multi = OFF

High Priority Process = ONN

Language = Engllish

Load Allah, press go and I get 6 FPS. ALt-tab, go back and I get 8 FPS.

3D Model = Better

3D Texture = Better

Load Allah, press go and I get 19 FPS. ALt-tab, go back and I get 30 FPS.

So what of CMSF knocking the card off of or dropping out of hardware rendering mode to software rendering mode. Has BFC looked into that? What have you found.

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

1. Driver issues with their particular cards..

Do you mean the beta forceware driver 163.67? I am downloading it now and will update my test results.

In what combination and with which driver is the problem?

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

2. Defects with the cards and specific GPUs handling VRAM swapping.

Which cards? I have a few days left on my ability to return for a refund my MSI card and not have to get an indentical card. Please advise if you think a specific card is at issue and which one.

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

3. Unknown reason for CM to drop into software rendering mode.

I look forward to hearing more about this, from what I can tell this is obviously a very serious problem, quite likely THE BIG ONE. Have you been able to duplicate this problem on the BFC 8800 rig?
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I did the same thing on Best/Best and got 5 FPS.

I tried loading another scenario and alt- tabbing to no avail.

Balanced/Balanced was 24 FPS.

Win XP Pro

Pentium 830d

2 gigs RAM

2 7800 GTX SLI

As long as I stay on BALANCED settings and tweak the settings in the NVIDIA control panel I'm fine. I'm not desperate for BEST settings, but I guess they'd be nice to have.

NVIDA 163.67 beta driver

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Just went through the pain of installing the new driver 163.67, fired up CMSF and . . . HUGE improvement. Don't have FRAPS so can't give framerates, but on Balanced/Balanced with everything else on it runs as smoothly as you would want it (albeit with some slight reduced visual detail). Allah's fist, or anything else I've checked: no more mouse lag or camera jerk. Perfecto!

If I change to Best/Best, however, although there's some slight improvement over the previous driver, mouse lag and camjerk are back, with slightly jerky graphics movements. Which shouldn't happen as my rig is Core2 Duo E6600 2.4Gig, 2Gig RAM, Nvidia 7950GT (512Mg), XPHome Media Centre.

Alt-Tab seems to make no difference.

This is all using the ingame options, no configuring of the Nvidia Panel settings. If anyone can advise optimal settings within the Nvidia Panel I'd be grateful. Or is it best to just stick with the settings in the Game Option panel?

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Originally posted by handihoc:

... on Balanced/Balanced with everything else on it runs as smoothly as you would want it (albeit with some slight reduced visual detail).

Right because for balanced the load is not as great, and so for CM to drop into software rendering mode it's not that big of a deal.

So again, we've shown that less detailed graphics are less of a demmand on a system running in software rendering mode, which we already knew.

What we don't know (still) is why CMSF caused the drop into software rendering mode for these 8800 cards.

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I also tried the new drivers yesterday and no special improvement in framerates even with alt-tabbing.

And about the software rendering "bug" I found I believe it was just some very minor side issue which Charles has allready fixed in 1.04.

What intrigues me is that IF there infact is a hardware defect in some G80's texture handling which cannot be resolved with drivers wouldn't that mean that the manufacturer of the card has to replace or fix it with a working version with no cost to the consumer?

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I would think that if the explanation of the problem makes sense getting a return would not be a big deal. ...depending on the mfg and how they support such.

Most other games I have I think use directx 9.0c or some such peleprodigy, and it may be that CMSF is the only title you or I have that uses OPenGL. Maybe. (BTW - What version OpenGl is it?)

So Hotti, are you saying the bug you identified was not a big deal to get fixed or the improvement in FPS performance once fixed is not going to be very much?

Like I wrote above right now I should be able to get newegg to take back the card and allow me to exchange for another brand without a problem, in a fewe days I'll be past the 30 day window...

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From Nvidia 163.67 release notes:

Improved performance of the graphics memory manager on GeForce

8 series GPUs running DirectX 9 applications in single‐GPU and

NVIDIA SLI configurations.

No mention about OpenGL performance here... Also while I do understand you are a relatively small group of people but I believe that CM: SF is still a quite popular game. Still no mention about problems with CM: SF in the release notes. If you look at the release notes you can see a number of issues with different games. Would be nice if you could (if you haven't allready) contact Nvidia about the problems you are having with the game so it would be listed there too. There is a specific sections in the release notes about problems that are driver related and are not driver related.

[ September 12, 2007, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Hotti ]

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Originally posted by handihoc:

It's fantastic to finally have the game running as smoothly as it should. Without all that lag and drag it's a joy to play. I've upped visuals to Improved/Improved, and for smoothness its as good as Balanced. Will try Better later on.

Point is Handi that a machine with an 8800 card that can run MS Flight with everything maxed at >24 FPS for instance and other games with a lot of stuff going on pretty much maxed and get like 30 - 40 fps, you ought not have to dumb down the graphics to where my old machine with just a 6800 card could even run it fast. You do get that, right?
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Of course I hear what you're saying! I mentioned earlier, and elsewhere, that my rig should easily be able to handle everything SF can throw at it, with everything set to highest level.

But up until the newest driver release I couldn't get a big SF battle running smoothly at all, even with graphics reduction, unless I dropped to very low settings. Other games were fine. Now I can. So for me, at least, its a big improvement, even if the problem still ain't solved. At least I can play properly and enjoyably whilst waiting for BF to come up with the full fix, which I've no doubt they will.

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Dirtweasle: I think Steve mentioned in the thread I started that the initial problem I found was not the main cause of the very low FPS but rather just a very minor glitch in someplace else and fixing it did very little to nothing on the FPS in the end. If I can guess it right it was just that the icons above units got reverted to software rendering and nothing else so that would have a very minor effect on the overall FPS.

And to the person asking about making a DirectX version of CM: SF this topic has been briefly visited a few times in other discussions and the main differences in OpenGL vs. DirectX is that OpenGL is free and I believe using DirectX commercially requires some sort of license from M$. And also when you look "under the hood" Charles would basically have to rewrite the whole graphics engine for DirectX which would be a huge task to do unless you want to wait for another 4 years with no updates to the current version of the game. tongue.gif Also it would be like talking chinese vs. japanese. While to us it might sound very similar but to a person who talks either language the other is jibberish.

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Originally posted by Hotti:

Dirtweasle: I think Steve mentioned in the thread I started that the initial problem I found was not the main cause of the very low FPS but rather just a very minor glitch in someplace else and fixing it did very little to nothing on the FPS in the end. If I can guess it right it was just that the icons above units got reverted to software rendering and nothing else so that would have a very minor effect on the overall FPS.

]

Drat! Must've missed that post. Thanks though for the update, and all the other stuff you've been doing.

What other games are using OpenGL, (I assume 2.0 is that correct?), might be interesting to compare and contrast how my MSI card handles that.

Are there any OpenGL compatibility tests that can be done on a card? Might be interesting to independently verify feature functionality.

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Yea, a simple google search reveals a good many tests using different shading types, and etc... I don;t know if there is a point to it, but maybe try some of them tonight. ??

I got to say reading this or another thread here and the notion that a GeForce 8800 GTS 640mb card is a cheap card and you need a GTX or an "ultra" to enjoy CMSF in all it's glory is, well, a little kooky.

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Handihoc,

Which was exactly why iw anted it tested, for some users, the drivers and alt tab have helped out frame rate and at least got some of the scenarios playable. As Steve said, there seems to be three issues, and at least we have identified 2 of them, the third still being elusive. At least we KNOW there is a texture memory problem, and nvidia is working on it.

Dirt,

Should you change out the card? Good question, the problem could appear on the next card the same way. All I can do is say personally, and personally I have cards from evga [the 8800] and bfg [my 7800 card]. I have been pleased with both. Is it worth to change one of them, can't make that call, but if it was MY card, I would if it already wasn't one of these.

Rune

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