My First Map

[Webwing]

Hi guys,

Here are two panoramic views of my first map using the Builder.

I've been busy somewhere else but I will be doing more stuff for TOW.

My idea was to have a brand new map and a mission to accompany it. So that you could have something with which to distract yourselves while waiting for the patch.

Unfortunately there are some issues that I need to solve so that it will be compatible with the current version of TOW. I'm using the BETA of the patch.

I did the map in two days. I set this as a deadline to see how I would do.

You could spend months in only one map if you wished. There is so much you can do an try out. So many details to add.

I wanted to upload it as it is and then upgrade it with a bit more time.

One thing I would say to players that want to use the Builder. Get used to the previous version where you can add houses and trees, etc. There is not much use in an empty terrain. So once the patch is finally released you will already be familiar with this part of the builder.

You can't imagine how gratifying it is to be able to make the whole landscape, every elevation, river, etc. And then add roads,houses, fences... And then go to the editor and make a mission specially for this map. When you get to the game and play it for the first time it is pure bliss. To see the result of your work and of what was until then only in your imagination. Absolutely fantastic.

I did this map from scratch. I had an idea for a map similar to one I did for CM:SF. I opened a clean summer map which is just a flat surface with a texture of grass. From there I did the main texture in Photoshop to have the fields and different colors in terrain. After that everything was done on the Builder and the mission on the Editor.

I hope to be able to sort this out soon so that you can have a go at it.

Hope you had a Merry Christmas and

Happy new Year to all.

[ December 27, 2007, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[Webwing]

And here two more screens:

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[Webwing]

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[the Fighting Seabee]

Nice looking map. I don't have ToW.

[ThePhantom]

Great map, Webwing. I have TOW but I haven't played it since Shock Force. Waiting for this patch on a game that has such great detail.

[Sneaksie]

Good job Webwing! It will be great when you'll add more trees and other objects.

We're glad that you like the tools:)

[ December 27, 2007, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Sneaksie ]

[Stoppelhopser]

Wow !

Cool work Webwing. With the ability to use custom textures this seems to be a first class map builder tool. Wish the modders for Maddox Games "1946" flight sim had something like that. Yesterday a beta patch was released and it took the slovakian team about three years to build their map.

Question: is the terrain mesh and brush size small enough to have roadside trenches or small "pits" for putting in AT guns or tanks "hull down" for example?

[Sneaksie]

You can try, but this will result in high poly numbers. In general, you can make more tiny feautures near map center (closer to edges polygon's 'tend' to be bigger and map is less detailed).

[Webwing]

Thanks guys!

Sneaksie,

I have put a lot more trees but they don't show up in the distance. When you get closer you can see them. But I didn't put too many of them since I was concerned with frame rate and the manual talks about some limits in their numbers bellow 3000.

I have 1128 already. Maybe I could add another 800 or so and get them to 2000.

Now talking about polygon count in the surface mesh.

How bit a hit they have on performance?

Is there a way to know how many polys we have in the map?

It would be also good to know, the same as with trees, what would be the ideal number here.

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[ December 28, 2007, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Webwing ]

[Webwing]

Originally posted by ThePhantom:

Great map, Webwing. I have TOW but I haven't played it since Shock Force. Waiting for this patch on a game that has such great detail.

Good to see you here! Me too, lately I have spent a lot of time with CMSF. Now I want to start to spend more time here. WWII is more to my taste actually.

By the way this is an infantry only scenario!

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[Webwing]

Originally posted by Stoppelhopser:

Question: is the terrain mesh and brush size small enough to have roadside trenches or small "pits" for putting in AT guns or tanks "hull down" for example?

You can easily do that!

Like Sneaksie said though there is the poly count issue.

In the pictures bellow you can see first my map and a map made by the 1C guys.

The 1C map is an area where they have a river!!! Still look how few polygons they use!!! Now compare that to my map and see the huge amount of polys there are just to make my river. :eek:

I just went about doing whatever I had in mind but to be honest I would have to redo my map completely and use polygons in a more economical fashion.

You cand get as much detail as you like but there will be a big performance hit, I guess, when you play the game.

I'm learning from my mistakes at this point.

The best way to start a map apparently is to start with the biggest brush and very smooth surface changes. Then you go working your way down to smaller brush sizes and stronger changes in elevation only in the areas where they are really needed.

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[Stoppelhopser]

Thanks Sneaksie and Webwing.

I understand.

A cool and adaptive system this actually is.

Well, In don't want to do every pothole (at least not yet ) but a railway embankment, a sunken road or 3-4 dimples for say hull down tanks or a battery is hopefully doable per map. Maybe cutting down on the trees and else for balance.

[Gnasher]

Ooh I so need this editor, I think I'm gonna get lost for a few years inside it.

I Think it's gonna be really usefull for changing some of the maps I'm already using on my current WIP Operation Epsom/Jupiter British campaign. Also I need it because I've altered some of the stock maps so much that they don't work with the original missions, so I'll need to rename the maps when I release it. So far I've been using the excellent Battleground Europe series of guidebooks for inspiration on mission content, with this editor I can actually build the historical terrain, how cool is that? :cool:

I already have a list of future campaign projects, off the top of my head:-

British 6th Airborne Pegasis Bridge, Ranville & Merville battery

Canadian battle for Carpiquet & Tilly

101st Airborne D-Day to Carentan

29th Infantry Omaha to St Lo

British VIII Corps Operation Bluecoat

101st Airborne Hells Highway - Market Garden

LSSAH Karkov spring 1943

6th SS Panzer Corps Spring Awakening Hungary 1945

I expect that good things will come from the community in the weeks/months after the path is released.

[Webwing]

It is a shame there are so few missions uploaded to CMMODS.

Let's hope that with this new tool people will share more of their work.

This map builder is fantastic. It is a program/game in and of itself. A great present from 1C and Battlefront.

I don't remember a game developer that has ever released a tool like this for free.

When I first heard of it I thought it was going to be something a lot more basic. But this thing is a beauty. You'll soon be able to see for yourselves.

Originally posted by Stoppelhopser:

Thanks Sneaksie and Webwing.

I understand.

A cool and adaptive system this actually is.

Well, In don't want to do every pothole (at least not yet ) but a railway embankment, a sunken road or 3-4 dimples for say hull down tanks or a battery is hopefully doable per map. Maybe cutting down on the trees and else for balance.

You will sure be able to do that, no problem.

All games have to face performance issues.

Some people are making beautiful maps for CM:SF but some are just frame rate killers and so nobody uses them. I can't play many because of my old machine.

This map I did for TOW played fine in game. So this things you intend to do will be fine.

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Gnasher:

Ooh I so need this editor, I think I'm gonna get lost for a few years inside it.

I Think it's gonna be really usefull for changing some of the maps I'm already using on my current WIP Operation Epsom/Jupiter British campaign. Also I need it because I've altered some of the stock maps so much that they don't work with the original missions, so I'll need to rename the maps when I release it. So far I've been using the excellent Battleground Europe series of guidebooks for inspiration on mission content, with this editor I can actually build the historical terrain, how cool is that? :cool:

I already have a list of future campaign projects, off the top of my head:-

British 6th Airborne Pegasis Bridge, Ranville & Merville battery

Canadian battle for Carpiquet & Tilly

101st Airborne D-Day to Carentan

29th Infantry Omaha to St Lo

British VIII Corps Operation Bluecoat

101st Airborne Hells Highway - Market Garden

LSSAH Karkov spring 1943

6th SS Panzer Corps Spring Awakening Hungary 1945

I expect that good things will come from the community in the weeks/months after the path is released.

Well, I guess you will have to quit your job and get a divorce!

You will go totally nuts when you start using it!!!

Using the tips from Sneaksie I am converting another map I did for CM:FS (see picture). I converted the messures. 8x8 to the 1 pixel = 1 meter used in TOW.

You will be able to import your maps as a texture and work on top of them!!!

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[Sneaksie]

Webwing

Concerning trees - rofl added 8000 detailed trees and his FPS were at playable level. You can also try adding more than ~2000. It's cumulative effect of trees, landscape, statics and such that will slow down the game and potentially may cause loading problems when their count is very high.

And there are maps with high poly count made by us too - Dunkirque for example, canals (sharp elevation changes) have many polys.

I think, trees far away from camera were not displayed because of corresponding parameter in game graphics options.

What is interesting is that most maps in original campaigns (not Moscow and Normandy) were made without this builder by hand (heightmap, grassmap and such editing in graphics editor).

[ December 28, 2007, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Sneaksie ]

[Webwing]

Sneaksie,

Let me say that it is a privilege for us players to have you here in the forum always ready to answer our questions. Your support is fantastic! Thanks a lot.

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

What is interesting is that most maps in original campaigns (not Moscow and Normandy) were made without this builder by hand (heightmap, grassmap and such editing in graphics editor).

You mean you didn't have this editor, it's a new tool? So I suppose you used a program like 3DsMax or something and then converted the mesh to the game engine. Is that it?

I played around with the mission editor in the beta version but didn't see anything new. dmg said there are new triggers. Have you got some sort of list of the new triggers included? And any other additions to the mission editor?

Thanks.

[rofl]

That looks nice, particularly the elevated road is exactly that what i miss on on ToW maps.

[Sneaksie]

Originally posted by Webwing:

You mean you didn't have this editor, it's a new tool? So I suppose you used a program like 3DsMax or something and then converted the mesh to the game engine. Is that it?

I played around with the mission editor in the beta version but didn't see anything new. dmg said there are new triggers. Have you got some sort of list of the new triggers included? And any other additions to the mission editor?

No, map designers painted heightmap like terrain texture. You can imagine that lining up landscape with some bridge was a pain Maps of terrain types and such were also drawn by hand.

I've replied about new triggers in beta forum.

[ThePhantom]

Webwing,

Is it really going to be an infantry only scenario for TOW? That would be great. I've got to play that one.

[SlapHappy]

Without better control of squads, infantry battles are an exercise in frustration. Just got through playing the "Blunted Spear" scenario and shut it off in disgust.

Trying to get the TAC-AI to do anything to help you is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Moving soldiers in groups to engage in firefights results in a massacre because they are more interested in plinking shots off a disabled halftrack 1/2 a kilometer away.

I'm all out of ideas to get infantry working in any meaningful way...If anyone has any good suggestions I'm all ears.

[Gnasher]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Without better control of squads, infantry battles are an exercise in frustration. Just got through playing the "Blunted Spear" scenario and shut it off in disgust.

Trying to get the TAC-AI to do anything to help you is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Moving soldiers in groups to engage in firefights results in a massacre because they are more interested in plinking shots off a disabled halftrack 1/2 a kilometer away.

I'm all out of ideas to get infantry working in any meaningful way...If anyone has any good suggestions I'm all ears.

:eek:

That's a tough one Slap, but I haven't really noticed squad AI as majorly disfunctional myself.

However I gotta admit that I mostly am play testing my own missions which have pretty "loose" objectives for both player & AI that either result in meeting engagements, assaults or defensive battles. By "loose" I mean setting groups to you infantry defend this rect & you tanks storm that rect etc, etc. During these missions I find fire & manouvre by squads, so one squad lays covering fire whilst the other moves, then vice versa is the best tactic, as in RL. I'm usually doing this with number keys & formations.

Could it be that the missions you are using for this assessment are overly scripted?

Above said, I believe you are right. Squad AI could be a bit more intelligent even if only for the enemy AI.

[Webwing]

Originally posted by Gnasher:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Without better control of squads, infantry battles are an exercise in frustration. Just got through playing the "Blunted Spear" scenario and shut it off in disgust.

Trying to get the TAC-AI to do anything to help you is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Moving soldiers in groups to engage in firefights results in a massacre because they are more interested in plinking shots off a disabled halftrack 1/2 a kilometer away.

I'm all out of ideas to get infantry working in any meaningful way...If anyone has any good suggestions I'm all ears.

:eek:

That's a tough one Slap, but I haven't really noticed squad AI as majorly disfunctional myself.

However I gotta admit that I mostly am play testing my own missions which have pretty "loose" objectives for both player & AI that either result in meeting engagements, assaults or defensive battles. By "loose" I mean setting groups to you infantry defend this rect & you tanks storm that rect etc, etc. During these missions I find fire & manouvre by squads, so one squad lays covering fire whilst the other moves, then vice versa is the best tactic, as in RL. I'm usually doing this with number keys & formations.

Could it be that the missions you are using for this assessment are overly scripted?

Above said, I believe you are right. Squad AI could be a bit more intelligent even if only for the enemy AI. </font>

[Webwing]

Originally posted by ThePhantom:

Webwing,

Is it really going to be an infantry only scenario for TOW? That would be great. I've got to play that one.

Yeah. I'll probably finish the Crossraods conversion first though. You played it in CM:SF. The map will have the exact same terrain, as far as possible. Still both games are very different in so many aspects. But it will be interesting how it plays out.

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[Webwing]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Webwing:

You mean you didn't have this editor, it's a new tool? So I suppose you used a program like 3DsMax or something and then converted the mesh to the game engine. Is that it?

I played around with the mission editor in the beta version but didn't see anything new. dmg said there are new triggers. Have you got some sort of list of the new triggers included? And any other additions to the mission editor?

No, map designers painted heightmap like terrain texture. You can imagine that lining up landscape with some bridge was a pain Maps of terrain types and such were also drawn by hand.

I've replied about new triggers in beta forum. </font>