Defensive Tactics Mission. WTFMATE

[Lord_Simmox]

yes martin,you surmised it well

*beardy* means a tad unrealistic or unsportsmanlike.

dont get me wrong though.im not complaining,as its quite clear you could in fact target empty guns i assume,if your opponent decides to do this.

its only the AI that cant use there brain to target empty guns or vehicles in this manner.

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Moon:

Some additional things to try:

- position the AT guns near the trench and abandon them immediately when the scenario starts, telling the crew to get into the trench. Wait for the tanks to come closer before opening fire.

rubbing my eyes - gamey tactics recommended by the game designers to overcome deficiencies (lack of HIDE command / entrenchment / scenario design) of the game?

:eek:

and this from BTS / BF.C?

:confused:

[gunnersman]

Actually it was my idea and I never fight fair.

[arzi]

I concur, AT guns seem to be utterly useless. I'd say the problem lies in spotting capability and and too perfect range estimation/firing.

a) Tanks should not spot AT Guns so easilly.

Does AI have Borg-like "collective" mind or is the problem only within Tanks' abilities?

When playing flat fields, nearly hull down position, my AT guns are usually killed when HE round lands just behind them?!?

That is amazing accuracy to shoot HE round on flat trajectory so it hits the ground and detonates on the correct range as deviation of about ~1/10 of degrees in elevation would result error of propably several hundred meters in range. Knock-out-hit into the gun shield would be much more likely scenario. -They do happen, but usually the crew has been killed several times already as I try to reoccupy it with other grunts.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

arzi,

I bet the game has no "physics" fire model but uses some simpler (and hidden/undocumented) formulas to determine hits/kills.

Same for spotting, it looks like you just "see" or "can't see" based on plain LOS consideration without concealment/terrain effects. For example men crouched in trenches are spotted as easily than guys running along a road...

[Moon]

Hofbauer, abandoning the gun is not gamey. If there is no other cover (and the map has none, unlike other maps), it's a valid tactic. I would do it in real life, as would you.

Martin

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Sure, but IRL a tank won't spot the gun as soon as the gun spots the tank, and the tank won't kill the gun or crew in a matter of 3 shots... The gun won't miss as often neither, I was stunned to see one gun miss 2-300m shots 4 times a row (with the tank coming right ahead, so it's not even a moving target problem).

Spotting rules as well as hits % are very weird and not realistic IMHO.

[Moon]

When the gun is placed in open ground, sure the tank will spot them, especially when the gun has opened fire. Usually the big white smoke cloud gives the position away. Tanks have magnifying sights with which you can easily spot a single individual at the ranges in the tutorial.

As for misses - during our last BFC meeting we went to an MG shootout at Steve's place. They also had a PAK there, a 57mm I think? For demonstration purposes they were shooting at a car parked down-range. The distance was perhaps 100m. They took plenty of preperation time and nobody was firing at them, and they missed the first shot.

Check the gun crew skill levels when they miss. Especially if you recrew with soldiers with zero gunner rating don't be surprised if they miss.

As for the laser tanks Jerry has in that... yeah, scratching my head over that one. Seems like a bug. It certainly wasn't the case when I played the mission for the Walkthroughs.

Martin

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO:

Sure, but IRL a tank won't spot the gun as soon as the gun spots the tank, and the tank won't kill the gun or crew in a matter of 3 shots... The gun won't miss as often neither, I was stunned to see one gun miss 2-300m shots 4 times a row (with the tank coming right ahead, so it's not even a moving target problem).

Spotting rules as well as hits % are very weird and not realistic IMHO.

Typically you will find guns much easier to spot then in CM, but they are certainly harder to spot then tanks. Contrary to what I've seen mentioned a couple of times concealment IS calculated, so hiding in a grain field helps a little (not much for ATGs), hiding in a brush is even beter. Most problems with ATGs stem from poor ATG placement. The tutorial forces this on you but try the full scenario and you'll see sensible ATG tactics rewarded. Parking a big gun on a big hill isn't one of them.

On your gun not hitting. That may be due to a number of factors. Is the tank is partly obscured by objects, trees and brush hitting it is hard. The guys that operated your gun may not have the required gunnery skill and are thus operating the gun at a vastly decreased efficiency. Or you were plain unlucky.

For the game, a moving tank is a moving tank. That it's only getting bigger and not moving sidways from the gun isn't accounted for.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Surely the Steve's place guys had a paltry Gunner rating ! too

I admit your reasoning, but am pretty sure that the Laser-PzKwIIIs spot the guns even before they fire, and that's more questionable. Even in open ground dug-in ATGs were concealed.

As for the gunner skills I did not recrew the guns, still being a CM-minded player .

Thanks for checking the accuracy of the tanks, they seems pretty much overrated. In the 2nd tutorial (Russkies assault) the BT-7 and T-34 also destriy quite rapidly the PaKs (but at least the Paks succeed in doing some damage, contrary to the weaker Russian 45mm...)

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I forgot to mention that the spotting skill of tanks is also factored in. A tank crew highly skilled in the Scouting skill will spot you easier then someone who's less capable.

And as I've mentioned before, we too are a little puzzled about the frigging laser beam accuracy of the tutorial. We've not seen it do anything like that before.

[MikoyanPT]

You are not listening me guys, this scenario is different from the others.

There are no germans inside these Panzers of the second wave, they are Dungeons and Dragons Beholders, beeings that shot lightning bolts and petrifying rays from their seven eyes. :eek:

Chill up people, it is just a small case of over the edge level design, the other missions are a beauty, especially the one attacking the village and the Seelow Heights scenario.

That second wave is scripted, the 3 Panzer III of the second wave are scripted as reinforcements, they materialize simultaneously at 500 meters range, and they shoot simultaneously at the AT guns and hit simultaneously ( they are beholders i tell you, petrifying gaze, kills instantly for looking at them :eek: ) both guns in the first shot (hapened to me, it was funny).

This is a scripted tutorial nothing to do with the rest of the game.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Hey I never saw the 2nd wave, I was already rolled over by the first !!

[DeLaVega]

I really hope what you all guys said that it`s just an AT-thing of this particular mission. Because of this tutorial incident I haven`t taken any AT guns in the Seelow heights mission yet.

And as I posted in another thread: Michael Wittmann should have said that in his opinion a silenced AT gun should count double (in the "kill list"), because they are so hard to knock out (from his experiences at the russian front). At least in this tutorial it`s not simulated at all.

That brings me to the cover and concealment point. In the Seelow heights mission I witnessed a shootout of two tanks and between them were 4 bushes. As I moved the cam down to them I couldn`t see anything, but the russian tank knocked the german out with one shot. :-( Suppression through bushes yes, but such a kill gives me the impression that everything what is placed on the battlefield has only a cosmetic purpose. Hope in the full version I can find out the opposite.

[iplaygames2]

I don't know if it's just me, but after reading the walkthroughs posted here a few weeks ago, I found something about this tutorial mission.

The guide indicates that in the version the reviewer got, there were no PIIIs in that first wave. Only the 3 PzIIs.

Maybe they added the 2 PzIIIs after the mission was too easy? Moon, can you enlighten us on this?

[seppDieter]

german tankers like michael wittman stated that they really HATED AT guns more than any other enemy weapon including tanks. because they simply couldn't see the AT guns, even in open ground. i wish there was a camouflage option, where you could order the crew to cover the gun with foliage and thus making the gun harder to spot.

another sollution when playing against human players would be TAKE THE DAMN GIGANTIC RED AND GREEN ICONS FROM THE UNITS AWAY!

other than that, is there a way to make the soldiers in the trenches to actually hide in them? no matter what i order them to do, they stick their headz out and wave their weapons at the enemy so he know where to shoot them with succes...

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Ordering them to crouch and hold fire works well. They'll still sneak a peak every now and again. Wouldn't you?

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Moon:

Hofbauer, abandoning the gun is not gamey. If there is no other cover (and the map has none, unlike other maps), it's a valid tactic. I would do it in real life, as would you.

Martin

Turewicz, the crews would abandon the guns and seek cover if they wiould not be in action facing enemy tanks and came under, say, an air attack or artillery fire.

Its gamey because the guns werent abandoned due to taking cover from air / artillery strike.

Now, let me emphasize that I did not play the game/demo so far since my system will not run it, but that from what I can gather so far the game seems like it will be very much enjoyable to me, despite any smaller or larger perceived deficiencies.

Therefore, correct me if Im wrong, but from what little I could gather from the postings so far people complained that

--> the mission is too hard, b/c guns are destroyed/their crews killed too fast, b/c one cannot HIDE them (= there is lack of a HIDE command) and there is no option to entrench them, resulting in them being spotted and destroyed too fast.

your advice was for the player to abandon the guns, this will prevent/delay spotting/destruction of the guns, and crew the weapons later when the tanks are closer.

this advice implies that either

a) guns that are not crewed are harder to spot

guns that are not crewed are ignored by the enemy (=AI) despite being functional and being seen

both a and b are deficiencies of the game. abandoning a gun does not make it harder to spot. in reality, a gun is camoflaged (and preferrably also entrenched) to make it hard to spot, and the crew is hiding/hunkering down behind it, not running away into a nearby trench to prevent the gun from being seen. as for b, the enemy in reality would shoot at any guns it sees because it cannot see whether they are crewed or not.

so you are using this flaw of the game to provide a solution to facilitate winning the scenario.

fits the definition of gamey in my book, down to the t.

I guess I can live with it, but I'll call out a flaw or gamey tactic when I see either.

[Moon]

It's both a) and . a) because uncrewed guns will not open fire on the incoming enemy with that gun (e.g. because the crew gets nervous) and because the AI is "reluctant" to open fire on unmanned equipment. I say reluctant because I am fairly sure that I have seen it shot up an abandoned tank on occasion, but I didn't specifically test for it.

From what you describe it sounds like gun crews would only ever abandon their guns from air or artillery strikes. I doubt that. Not if they are in the middle of an empty grass field, there is a bunch of tanks rolling on, and a neat trench nearby to hop into

Martin

[M Hofbauer]

Originally posted by Elmar Bijlsma:

Ordering them to crouch and hold fire works well. They'll still sneak a peak every now and again. Wouldn't you?

soldiers ordered to hide and hold fire so they wont be noticed/targeted by the enemy are expected not to raise their heads to take nosy peeks.

green troops might not adhere to that, but thats a different matter.

how does the dutch army execute ambushes and/or keep the element of surprise?

[gunnersman]

Originally posted by seppDieter:

another sollution when playing against human players would be TAKE THE DAMN GIGANTIC RED AND GREEN ICONS FROM THE UNITS AWAY!

I do believe this is in the options.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

how does the dutch army execute ambushes and/or keep the element of surprise?

By sneaking a look every now and then to see where the enemy is. Otherwise you are just guarding a 1.5m deep hole.

[maniac_mat]

Just tried the mission again after reading this. very first shot from PZ3 is dead on at gun from 500m+. same with second gun. thought it was just bad luck so i restared it. same thing happend, PZ3 dead on with first shot, not only that but my guys in trenches wont keep thier heads down so they are as good as dead too.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

For the guys in trenches tell them to hold fire (and position while you are at it) and select the crouch stance. This will keep them out of too much trouble. If you select crouch only they will still try and get shots off, thus increasing the chance of getting spotted and hit.

[jiggles]

This scenario is pretty silly and does little except to highlight the short-comings of the engine IMO.

I mean for sure if you put your AT guns out in the open in CM they'd get toasted. But in CM you'd also have the option to:

- tell them to hold fire, which they'd do (in ToW "hold fire" seems to have the sole purpose of wearing out my mouse button; as far as I can tell there's no in-game consequence).

- tell them to hide, which would lower their visibility. Not here, it seems. Prance about in big pink neon outfits with "ooo... shoot me" written on the back seems to be the default.

In CM you can also judge the visibility of the guns when you place them. Not in ToW, there's very little useful information presented by the engine about that.

It's not obvious what this mission is supposed to be teaching the player (even presuming the target audience is a total n00b who hasn't played CM or any other decent wargame). Is it "site your guns in the open they get toasted, hide them in cover and you've got a chance"? Because that's not the message I'm getting from it.