"Bang $100,000 goes up in smoke..."

[Bigduke6]

Originally posted by Splinty:

BigDuke, let me remind you of something, if those soldiers "chose" not to fight then they're not soldiers anymore, they're civilians in matching clothes. The choice is to join in the first place, after that-unless the order is illegal- there is NO choice.

Splinty,

Well of course, it might just be possible, if I was really feeling seditious, to argue what the country really needs is a mass mutiny like the French or Russians in 1917. Sure some ringleaders got shot, but for sure it got the government's attention and forced it to change the war policy dramatically. Stauffenburg is a national hero after all, it is possible to undermine the war effort and be the good guy. But that's an extreme view for the topic at hand. If the issue is Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't think that's what's needed.

What's needed here, in my opinion, is rational review of the goals and means, by the participants, before they decide to participate. And if they do decide to participate, and are doing so on grounds what they are good for the country, those grounds better be rock solid. This is human lives and the national welfare, not a selection in a fast food restaurant, we are talking about.

Officers could resign their commissions in protest of a goofy war policy, if of course they thought the war policy was goofy. Sure they'd stay in, and sure they'd ruin their careers. But maybe a career isn't worth supporting, consciously and in the face of an awful lot of information, a bad policy.

Senior enlisted don't get to be senior enlisted, unless they reup. So if the war policy is goofy, if there is a preponderance of information that it is goofy, if no one can say how not to make it goofy, the why reup? As noted, if you need the cash to pay the bills, I say "cool". But that means the soldier's participation is mercenary, and every should be clear about that. It's not right to hide a mercenary decision, under the mantle of crusading.

Junior enlisted had plenty of information available to them making enlistment in a goofy war - well, I say it's a goofy war, the person needs to judge it for himself - and if the person has grounds to doubt the wisdom of the war, he shouldn't volunteer. And if he does for other reasons, let him be up front with it.

What is senseless, is "we're on a Crusade", when the Crusade seems so obviously doomed to failure. Why buy into that? Supporting failure is not good for your nation.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Senior enlisted don't get to be senior enlisted, unless they reup. So if the war policy is goofy, if there is a preponderance of information that it is goofy, if no one can say how not to make it goofy, the why reup? As noted, if you need the cash to pay the bills,

Many senior enlisted were Indef before the war began, others were close enough to the infamous indef that getting out then would have made no sense.

Sorry if my enlistment choice wasn't good enough for you.

What is senseless, is "we're on a Crusade"

The only ones I have heard use that terminology were the Anti-War crowd.

Also, we can't be blamed if we don't get the support we require.

[ March 25, 2008, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Clavicula_Nox ]

[abneo3sierra]

Bigduke..As someone who myself has a shattered leg that, hopefully, will be back to normal soon, and constant headaches, that may never be, and a shattered marriage, I deeply resent your implication that sacrifices were somehow made for the selfish reason of "combat duty" for glory, etc..I would have left a very long time ago, if I did not believe in the cause. I do..to have not acted, would have left many more dead, and would have left people such as my 5 year old son, having to "pay the bill" as it were, because, trust me, whether or not you see it, it still will come due.

Appeasement does not save lives, in the long run, sure, it may save a few now, but it strengthens the enemy, and in the end will cost far more than anyone is willing to imagine.

[abneo3sierra]

I think Bigduke6 lived as Tokyo Rose in a previous life "Why fight? Nobody wants you here ! Go home, be with your family, it is a lost cause anyway.."

We all remember how THAT turned out, I hope.

For what it's worth though, Bigduke..I just realized it is you who has the metacampaign on CMBB..love that. You obviously are creative..now if we can just get you to walk towards the light "Leave the darkside, Luke"

[Clavicula_Nox]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

Bigduke..As someone who myself has a shattered leg that, hopefully, will be back to normal soon, and constant headaches, that may never be, and a shattered marriage, I deeply resent your implication that sacrifices were somehow made for the selfish reason of "combat duty" for glory, etc..I would have left a very long time ago, if I did not believe in the cause. I do..to have not acted, would have left many more dead, and would have left people such as my 5 year old son, having to "pay the bill" as it were, because, trust me, whether or not you see it, it still will come due.

Appeasement does not save lives, in the long run, sure, it may save a few now, but it strengthens the enemy, and in the end will cost far more than anyone is willing to imagine.

Oh man, I'm really sorry to hear that, man. What happened? When can you come back? They're not trying MEDBOARD, are they?

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

- US/NATO lacks the capacity to halt the opium trade. See their efforts to halt the drug trade in their own countries.

- US/NATO lacks the domestic will for a major troops commitment in Afghanistan

- US/NATO lacks the domestic will to accept even moderate friendly casualties, by which I mean dozens over a month. This straightjackets US/NATO tactics into heavily favoring high-tech weapons, against more boots on the ground, and so goes a long way towards abandoning the Afghan populace to the guerillas.

Mao said it all, baby. The insurgents are fish swiming in a sea of the population, and as long as the sea is on your side, it doesn't matter what the other guy tries to do to the fish. The sea itself will create more fish, as it always has.

[/QB]

[abneo3sierra]

Clavicula,

Thanks. And really, I will be fine, alot more so than many.Should be back in a couple of weeks, then I will have less time for games though,major downside I will not ALLOW them to shove me out

As I said, I do believe in the fight.

[Clavicula_Nox]

That's good to hear; we always need good Alphas.

[Bigduke6]

If the shoe fits, then wear it. If it doesn't, then don't. It's up to you to decide whether your sacrifice made sense.

No one can do that for you, although it is possible to offer pertinant information. What I put out here, you can take it or leave it, up to you.

I will say that I think the world would be a better place if more people sacrificed to make it better. Still, sometimes sacrifices go awry.

Me, I have seen young men dead or maimed, because they thought fighting for a nebulous idea was more important than their lives. Maybe it was, I don't know, their decision after all, but thing is several times I talked to some of their relatives - the parents, the wives, the kids. They didn't think so. They just wanted that young man back.

It's like that on both sides - sometimes it really sucks to be neutral, you see that most of the time no one has the moral high ground, no one is the good guys, and that most of the time in a modern war a few people are getting rich by alot of people trying to murder one another. That's not Socialst hype, seriously, that's really the way it looks to me: find any war, and I'll show you a small group of people making money hand over fist.

And of course for every young man dying for his convictions, there must be 10 or 20 innocents suffering some way because they didn't want a war, but it came anyway.

I guess it affected me some, because when I see some one else saying "fight!" without having a really excellent reasons why, I tend to try and point out the holes in that thinking. Usually it's because what's being sold as an excellent idea, in your words "a cause", is in the light of fact an inoperable idea. Good intention, can't execute.

You say fighting was necessary, because the alternative was appeasement. I challenge that.

Appeasement is not always a brilliant strategy, but I question whether or not it even makes sense to worry about the term when what you are trying to do is keep terrorists from attacking your country. Just because you think "appeasement is bad", that's what, a logical imperative to invade a place like Afghanistan?

What's so hard about looking at the history, the terrain, the culture, what you need done, and making an intelligent decision? Take your time, use money, use diplomacy, use spies, use smart munitions, use nukes, trick the imans' children into attending western universities; the possibilities are endless. Where was it written "invasion of Afghanistan is a great idea, a brilliant policy choice, and superior to all other options?"

Nowhere of course. But if one just accepts pablum like "appeasement = bad" "military attack = ideal", or allows one's leader to throw around schlocky arguements like that, then the chances of something stupid happening rocket.

Wars have to be entered intelligently, fought intelligently. We need to demand that intelligence of our leaders, our soldiers, our voters. You want an example of how to play that game, look at FDR's approach to WW2, it took him more than two years to back the country into fighting for the right thing. It took a while but he did it legally, and when the fight came all (well pretty much) the Americans knew it was the right thing to do. The public will to sacrifice until victory was there, rock-solid.

Human life is too valuable to go to war, just because you're mad, or you want some one to pay, or you have a hazy idea you want to make the world a better place and your buddies say joining up is how to do it. You have to know, you have to be sure, and your convictions need to hold up when others question them.

Unless of course, there is some way to repress the questioners. But I don't think you would want that, and though you may not believe it actually I say that with respect.

P.S. I have a 5-year-old too.

P.S.S. Join the Lauban campaign. I'm actually a pretty good guy when I'm not lecturing some one about current affairs.

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

Bigduke..As someone who myself has a shattered leg that, hopefully, will be back to normal soon, and constant headaches, that may never be, and a shattered marriage, I deeply resent your implication that sacrifices were somehow made for the selfish reason of "combat duty" for glory, etc..I would have left a very long time ago, if I did not believe in the cause. I do..to have not acted, would have left many more dead, and would have left people such as my 5 year old son, having to "pay the bill" as it were, because, trust me, whether or not you see it, it still will come due.

Appeasement does not save lives, in the long run, sure, it may save a few now, but it strengthens the enemy, and in the end will cost far more than anyone is willing to imagine.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Would not necessarily make the CIA Factbook, or any of the dozens of other sources (other than Wiki), wrong. A "majority" of Babil province would only be around 2-3% of Iraq's total population.

That's nice and irrelevant. I was talking about Babil and the immediate area around it, but mostly on the Karbala border.</font>

[abneo3sierra]

Bigduke6..

I think we can agree to disagree on this. I do see your points, and although I come across as , probably rude, in making some of mine, I don't mean it to. I strongly disagree with you, as I believe the war was worth waging, and the end result, imho, will be 2 stable countries, although I am wondering how long that will take.

Nevertheless, I do see your opinion as well thought out, anyway. I wish more people would think things through. Part of the reason why I am so quick to temper about this subject, is that most people have their opinions on it based on what someone else said, and that, to be honest, annoys the hell out of me. I would not want someone to agree with me because I said it. I would challenge them to look at it, with an open mind, and decide that way, and I am willing to live with either choice from people, if that is how they arrived at it.

So, I have come to the conclusion that you fall into that category, and I respect your thoughts. After all, part of what I joined for, a long time ago it seems, was to defend the rights of people to speak up, and sometimes I will disagree, but I am glad people have that right.

PS..I am new to most of these games, and am not sure I have heard of the campaign you mentioned. But I will look.

PSS I have no doubt you are a good guy..wrong but a good guy

edit PSSS Just noticed you advocated nuking Afghanistan Hey you went a little too far to the other side there..come back towards the middle

[ March 25, 2008, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: abneo3sierra ]

[Clavicula_Nox]

Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Would not necessarily make the CIA Factbook, or any of the dozens of other sources (other than Wiki), wrong. A "majority" of Babil province would only be around 2-3% of Iraq's total population.

That's nice and irrelevant. I was talking about Babil and the immediate area around it, but mostly on the Karbala border.</font>

[FAI]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

The CYA reports that came out later..missed them, we were too busy chasing tangos, and uncovering the mass graves in Iraq..

What makes you think they were'nt also covering their collective posteriors when they produced the Powerpoint slides pointing to the "damning" evidence of doomsday weapons in the middle of a desert, or somewhere else?

[the Fighting Seabee]

abneo3sierra,

Thanks for your sacrifices. I really do appreciate them and I understand why they were important to make.

As a disabled veteran myself, I HIGHLY recommend that you keep a copy of your medical records in a safe place. When you do decide to get out/retire, your gonna need it. The VA will give you what you deserve... some money, free healthcare, free college, and depending on what state you enlisted from, your kids may also get a free ride in college. Having been through the whole medboard process (for a whole freakin year), I might be able to help you out. If you need or want any info, let me know, even if it's 10 years down the line. ahindssolo@hotmail.com. Even if they say you're good to go and you do 30 years, TRUST ME ON THIS ONE, you will still be eligible for all or more of the benefits I listed above when you get out. Hoorah!

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by FAI:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

The CYA reports that came out later..missed them, we were too busy chasing tangos, and uncovering the mass graves in Iraq..

What makes you think they were'nt also covering their collective posteriors when they produced the Powerpoint slides pointing to the "damning" evidence of doomsday weapons in the middle of a desert, or somewhere else? </font>

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by the Fighting Seabee:

As a disabled veteran myself, ...

Actually I should be thanking you. I am not disabled, and should be back to normal. Thank you for your service. I do appreciate the offer though, and would be glad to stay in touch.

[skelley]

And of course for every young man dying for his convictions, there must be 10 or 20 innocents suffering some way because they didn't want a war, but it came anyway.

There already was a civil war going on in Afganistan and had been going on for 20 years. I would suggest that there is more calm now than there had been during the last 20 years. What about the people that didn't much care to be beheaded for listening to music during the oh so peaceful days of the Taliban controlling most of the country?

[the Fighting Seabee]

I'm not telling you to cheat uncle sam, but if you got hurt, you will get benefits. Slight recurring pain in your leg? Headaches that won't go away? Hell, even a mean scar. All of these factors can relate to lost wages in the future, therefor, you will be entitled to it.

DO NOT just let it slip by. Pursue it. And the people at medical aren't the ones to talk to. Find a local VA guy, they are everywhere. They are the ones to ask. They can even help you get the ball rolling.

I'm trying to give you good advice here. There are far too many veterans who don't get anything because they never bothered. Don't be that guy.

Again, trust me, or at least remember this and contact the VA BEFORE you get out.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by the Fighting Seabee:

I'm not telling you to cheat uncle sam, but if you got hurt, you will get benefits. Slight recurring pain in your leg? Headaches that won't go away? Hell, even a mean scar. All of these factors can relate to lost wages in the future, therefor, you will be entitled to it.

DO NOT just let it slip by. Pursue it. And the people at medical aren't the ones to talk to. Find a local VA guy, they are everywhere. They are the ones to ask. They can even help you get the ball rolling.

I'm trying to give you good advice here. There are far too many veterans who don't get anything because they never bothered. Don't be that guy.

Again, trust me, or at least remember this and contact the VA BEFORE you get out.

Thank you. I did not mean to imply that the offer was not appreciated. It certainly is. And yes, I will have to deal with the people at the VA.

I simply meant that it was me who should have been thanking you, as I made it through, really well, compared to many many people.

[Clavicula_Nox]

What happened? Do you mind sharing?

[Omenowl]

Sorry I found an article from 1945 from the NYT

The "attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared."

I also found this from the Saturday Evening Post

January 26, 1946

How We Botched the German Occupation

By Demaree Bess

Regardless we view being in Germany, Italy and Japan for the last 60 years as ok even though the Cold War is over. Even Korea is capable of defending itself, but we stay.

The difference between Iraq and those places if we made a commitment and stuck by it. Germany still has 57000 troops, Korea 23000, Japan 32000.

My view towards Iraq is we broke it we need to fix it. No more Somalia's and Haiti's where we kick over the ant hill, declare victory and leave it just as bad as we found it.

I honestly think almost everyone wants soldiers out of Iraq. I also believe most people want the Iraqi's to live in peace and security.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox:

What happened? Do you mind sharing?

My young cousin plays FPS games on line. One of his favorites used to be Counterstrike. When they played, they all, of course, had their call signs. In the game, it would tell you things such as "you killed ..." or "you were killed by ..."

I always remember watching him one day playing, and he was 'killed' by someone with the call sign "being stupid" Everyone got a laugh when the messages started hitting the screen "you were killed by being stupid"

That sums mine up fairly well, with the happy part that I was not killed at least. I got too close to a car that had been tampered with. Extremely stupid.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by Omenowl:

Sorry I found an article from 1945 from the NYT

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The "attitude toward the American occupation forces has swung from apathy and surface friendliness to active dislike. According to a military government official, this is finding expression in the organization of numerous local anti-American organizations throughout the zone and in a rapid increase in the number of attacks on American soldiers. There were more such attacks in the first week of October than in the preceding five months of the occupation, this source declared."

I also found this from the Saturday Evening Post

January 26, 1946

How We Botched the German Occupation

By Demaree Bess

Regardless we view being in Germany, Italy and Japan for the last 60 years as ok even though the Cold War is over. Even Korea is capable of defending itself, but we stay.

The difference between Iraq and those places if we made a commitment and stuck by it. Germany still has 57000 troops, Korea 23000, Japan 32000.

My view towards Iraq is we broke it we need to fix it. No more Somalia's and Haiti's where we kick over the ant hill, declare victory and leave it just as bad as we found it.

I honestly think almost everyone wants soldiers out of Iraq. I also believe most people want the Iraqi's to live in peace and security. </font>

[Clavicula_Nox]

You know, almost the same thing happened to me. We had cleared a building in-use by bad guys and one of my soldiers had a file cabinet that was trapped. We were fairly pressed for time sensitivity, I told my soldiers to get out of the room while I attempted to disarm it. Being a graduate of Sapper, I figured "hey, Sapper is close to EOD, I've got this."

I figured wrong but was fortunate in that file cabinets do not make good booby traps and only received perforations to my right shoulder, hand, and forearm.

You know, I still haven't lived that down, either. Others sometimes will joke around, "Hey, if you ever run into any traps, Sgt _______ can take care of it for you." etc.

Being stupid, but we didn't have 6-8 hours to wait for an EOD team, you know?

I'm glad you're okay and I'm very sorry that others aren't. It hurts me inside everytime I pick up Paraglide and see "Paratrooper killed in Iraq/Afghanistan" or everytime I open an Army Times. Army Times was how I found out a friend from highschool had been killed, Spc David Rice..a ****in newspaper and he died while I was deployed, no more than 100 miles away. It upset me terribly.

I haven't lost a trooper yet, and I hope I never have to bear that burden, I would rather that if it had to be someone that it be me. I simply can't imagine how difficult it is and on so many levels. truly the worst job in the Army.

[abneo3sierra]

I am sorry about your friend as well. I am certain that when all is said and done, most everyone will be touched by the war. It is for that reason that imho, we have to make certain it wasn't all for nothing.